I'd like some feedback - Page 3

| And in the USA it has NOT been well
| handled, unlike Europe where the sets are being swapped out FOC.

They were charging in the US?
 
| Futaba tried to cover the problem up by claiming it was a few sets that
| went out unprogrammed, but within days several users had managed to
| reset their IDs

Futaba probably originally believed that some sets went out
unprogrammed and that was the only problem.  It makes sense, anyways.

Later, we learned that you could force this to happen yourself by
turning off at the right instant, which leads me to believe that
_this_ is the (only) cause of the lost GUIDs -- perhaps it happened in
the factory during testing, or perhaps it happened later when the
end-users had them, but it makes perfect sense.

And yes, the fact that turning the system off at the right instant can
clear/corrupt the internal memory (or part of it, whatever) would
certainly qualify as a design flaw.

| There is some evidence that leaving the sets on and the batteries
| running flat would also cause this, but its not been fully proven.

It also doesn't really make sense.

| This effect is fully implied in European distributors documentation on
| the problem, but strangely absent from US distributors documentation.
|
| One assumes this is because of the overly litigious nature of US
| consumer law.

Perhaps, but I'm not sure that's Futaba's fault.

Either way, are you saying they if your radio has this problem, they
won't fix it for free in the US?

--
Doug McLaren, dougmc@frenzied.us
"You can't have your cake and eat it too. So let me eat it."

Snip of Fred's rant


Lighten up before you have an aneurysm.  I moved away from Futaba over 20
years ago shortly after three 7 channel gold boxes failed immediately after
I got them back from Futaba service.  What clinched my move was when the
first flight on a new 6 channel box my plane began an uncommanded roll.  I
got lucky and landed and when THAT radio came back, I traded for old used
Airtronics equipment and until now have never looked back.  What is the
saying?  Fool me once and shame on you, fool me twice and shame on me, and
there won't be a third time.  The repairs were first and the new radio was
second.   My choice was made because I did not feel the Futaba actions were
coordinated enough for me to risk endangering the public through my models
using their defective or improperly repaired equipment.

However, Airtronics has made their share of mistakes in that 20+ years.
Fred, the real point is that  Futaba has been known to make mistakes just
like the rest of us.  They have never been, are not now, and will never be
omnipotent.  For years I heard that JR had radios only the stupid used and
for years Airtronics radios were only used by dummies too stupid to buy JR.
Now JR has some of the best all around radios on the market and some big
name folks flying large scale birds use Airtronics because of the
capabilities of the big transmitters.

I have begun the move from Airtronics simply because I am not impressed with
their market penetration in the 2.4 GHz field and because I won a Spektrum
after they had been on the market almost a year.  I was waiting to see if
any technical issues showed up and they did.  There seems to be a
programming glitch in the AR7000 receivers that Horizon appears to be
willing to correct FOC (from what I have heard).  It has to do with brownout
conditions and reboots.  My first RX probably goes in the mail in the
morning for correction so it is equal to the new one I installed as a
replacement Saturday.

YMMV so in that case I will use the words of one of your heroes, be well. :)

Jim Branaum
AMA 1428

On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:11:27 -0500, "Six_O'Clock_High"


Futaba over 20

Last century's news, bub.

Heroes, schmearoes.  Don't have any, but you wouldn't know that.

I have had JR, Futaba, and Airtronics over the years. The BEST by far has
been the Airtronics. I can honestly say I have NEVER had a problem with
Airtronics since using the original Sanwa radios in the 70's! I just bought
the new Airtronics 2.4ghz. I'll let you know how it goes. I also have the
Futaba 7C 2.4ghz.  I guess time will tell.

I'll second that.  I've been using Airtronics since 1990, and the only
time I've ever had trouble was after I crashed and cracked a crystal.


Jim wrote:

-----------

I have owned and flown one Airtronics radio. It was a six channel rig that I
bought in 1985. It never missed a beat the two years I flew it. I would buy
another Airtronics in a heartbeat, were I in the market for another sport
radio.

Ed Cregger

The newer Airtronics radios have a lot of the same programmable features as
JR and Futaba!

---------------

I know, but I'm heavily invested in JR and recently Futaba again. I wish
Futaba would drop the stupid tabs on their servos and adapt the universal
plugs that everyone else uses. I get tired of trimming them off.

Or, inversely, JR and Airtronics could adapt the tabs. I don't care which.


Ed Cregger

| I know, but I'm heavily invested in JR and recently Futaba again. I wish
| Futaba would drop the stupid tabs on their servos and adapt the universal
| plugs that everyone else uses. I get tired of trimming them off.

Well, Hitec and JR uses.  Airtronic's servo plugs are worse -- you can
file their tabs off too (and don't forget to fix the ordering of the
wires), and that works, but then the plug never quite fits right,
especially if you have several in a row like that.

| Or, inversely, JR and Airtronics could adapt the tabs. I don't care which.

I like the Futaba tabs -- they do the job (keep you from plugging in
backwards) better than the slightly rounded edges on one side that
Hitec and JR use.  But either works well enough, and the Hitec/JR
method is probably the closest to a `standard'.

--
Doug McLaren, dougmc@frenzied.us
Her eyes were like two brown circles with big black dots in the centre.

NO! Airtronics has used universal plugs for many years now. Granted, the old
plugs were worse than the Futabas!

| NO! Airtronics has used universal plugs for many years now. Granted, the old
| plugs were worse than the Futabas!

I haven't bought any new Airtronics gear in years, so maybe I'm out of
touch.  You mean they got rid of these plugs?

   http://redstickrc.org/servo.jpg

If so, good riddance!

--
Doug McLaren, dougmc@frenzied.us
I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm
frightened of the old ones. -- John Cage

Yes, the blue stuff in "standardized" to the JR/Hitec plugs and will fit in
Futaba.  Been that way well over 5 years.

Haha, yeah, those tabs are a PITA!

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 09:16:15 +0100, "Trefor"


In keeping with the Futaba-bashing nature of the thread, your failure
to maintain properly charged batteries has become yet another failure
by the Evil Futaba.

Sure thing, bub.

| In keeping with the Futaba-bashing nature of the thread, your failure
| to maintain properly charged batteries has become yet another failure
| by the Evil Futaba.

To be fair, the problem isn't usually `failure to maintain properly
charged batteries' (but that could cause the same problem.)

The problem is generally partially discharged batteries -- perhaps
still 60% charged -- but batteries that have an internal resistance
that is too high for the load being put on them, so when all the
servos move at once, the voltage drops too much and the RX goes into
failsafe.  It could also be caused by long runs of thing wire from the
battery to RX.

It happens a lot to sailplane pilots on their full house planes.
They've put in a tiny pack to save weight, and have gone NiMH to give
themselves enough capacity to fly for a few hours.  Between the pack
having a high internal resistance (due to being small and due to being
NiMH) and the six digital servos that this plane may have, and the
fact that enabling crow will generally move five (standard tail) or
all six (V-tail) of the servos at once, it's often a recipe for
disaster.

To make matters worse, you usually enable crow when you're just about
to land.  On the bright side, if you set up the failsafe properly, it
usually enables crow for you, so it might go ahead and land itself --
but let's hope it's level ...

--
Doug McLaren, dougmc@frenzied.us
Programming is an art form that fights back.

On 20 Apr 2008 02:55:48 GMT, "Doug McLaren"



To be fair, the original poster stated that the problem was a battery
going flat, and in the same post proceeded to heap abuse on Futaba for
no good reason, and without -having- a Futaba SS system or having
-read- the Futaba SS literature.

Same old song, new verse : "I been HIT.  Turn it OFF  !!!",
2008-style.

-------------

I still agree with Futaba's marketing line of, "Spread Spectrum done right".
I'm paraphrasing, so no need for anyone to point out an error in the quote.
The premise still stands.

The ID code problem is significant, but can be straightened out via software
corrections.

However, how the system operates when compared to other radios that claim to
be spread spectrum is not. The "other" SS system resembles Motorola's 800
MHz land mobile trunking system somewhat. While the Futaba system somewhat
(very loosely) resembles E.F. Johnson's 800 MHz land mobile trunking system.
Both work, but the Johnson system was more secure due to the fact that every
time someone released a mic key, one never knew which frequency pair was
going to be used, whereas the Motorola system, once it found a frequency
pair, stayed with that pair of frequencies until the conversation was
concluded. With the trunked radio systems, if you were listening in hopes of
gaining proprietary information, it is obvious that the Motorola system
would be less secure, because it didn't change frequencies between key-ups,
whereas the Johnson system could be impossible to find because they were
operating on different frequency pairs every time a microphone was unkeyed.
If the "trunking system" employed five to ten repeater pairs, the Johnson
system could be impossible to track.

Similarly, the "other" system (not Futaba) picks a frequency pair and sticks
to them, using the strongest received signal on whichever frequency of the
two channels were selected when the system was first initiated. This could
make it easier for someone to detect and then interfere with these two
frequencies. The Futaba system is constantly changing frequencies. How many
frequencies does it hop too during a normal operating sequence? I have no
idea, but it "sounds" more difficult to interfere with. Maybe not, in
reality, but I haven't found the information as yet to decide. Haven't
looked lately either.

Apparently, both systems seem to be working just fine, other than Futaba's
initializing fault, which allegedly has been remedied. I have to check to
see if my Futaba Tx units are among the suspected units with a problem.

Ed Cregger

Hey Aard  Like the page ans spent about an hour reading.  Thanks fo

putting it up as now there may be some honest reviews on the net

--
starca
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aardvark.co.nz@gmail.com wrote:

Could you put dates on your articles/reviews? Sometimes accuracy "fades"
with age; products get modified (for better or worse).