"Forge Advice" revisited

You're talking about the sources below, right?

I'll certainly try this later, and thanks for posting, but for now I think a bottle of ITC-100 will suit my needs better. For one, I'm pretty much out of fun money for a while, and the $30 bottle more affordable right now.

I have a forge made of stacked firebricks, but I I'm going to make another out of an air pig and some ceramic blanket (w/ceramic board for the doors). All I'll need to do is coat that furnace lining, and that will hold me for a year or so. (Well, I hope it'll last that long...)

Also, I'm a little worried that the home-brew ITC-100 won't protect me against inhaling ceramic fibers as well as the retail stuff. I don't really know one way ot the other, but I think the real ITC-100 will do a better job gluing down the fibers.

I'd love to try some of the home-brew stuff, but in a year or so...

I'll pick up "The Glass blowers Companion" in a couple of months, when I know a little more about blacksmithing and have a better idea of what I'm looking for...

---------------------------------------------------------------- Two sources for #200 mesh milled Zircon (Zirconium Silicate) are:

Ceramic Color & Chemical Co. Box 297 New Brighton, PA, 15066 Ph.# 724-846-4000 ................................................................

Zarcar Products 110 N. Main Florida, N.Y. 10921 Ph.# 914-651-4481

The reason you use ITC100 is to improve the IR reflectivity of your forge's wall material. It also does a good job of tying down loose fibers.

If you only are concerned about the fibers, ITC100 is incredibly expensive. There are any number of products that do a good job of holding the fibers. I use a product called Satanite. I'd guess you can get 50 *pounds* for something like $30, but it's been years since I bought any.

Steve Smith

snipped-for-privacy@rgs.uci.edu wrote:

Hi J.P. Trust me, and about 1000 glassblowers. The home brew, "Z-Wash" does everything the ITC-100 does and actually seems to extend the need for recoating. The coloidial silica, (CS) penetrates the frax blanket, binds and toughens the fibers and creates a better bond to subsequent coatings such as ITC, Z-wash or Satanite. The thing is that Frax gets kind of "loose" at high temperatures making the bond with other coatings tenuous at best. The coloidial silica solution substantially improves this bond and prevents the coatings from spalling. A bag of Satanite is a lifetime supply for most of us. It's well worth the $30. The silica solution VASTLY improves it's bond to Frax. Check Zircar's web site . A gallon of coloidial silica is around $60. Forget buying hard board insulation for the doors just dilute the CS by about 1/2 with water, soak your blanket in it and compress it between wooden boards 'til it dries out overnight and you will have just about the same thing as hard board insulation for a lot less $$$.

I'll give the Satanite, colloidal silica and Zircon a try, if I can scare up everything for not too much more than $100 or so. I'm sure the increased efficiency will pay off over few months. I'll write up my experience and post it to my site, too.

Glen, you mentioned making "shaped, cast burner ports to improve burner tip life an efficiency". Would you mind commenting further?

I have a two of Reil-type burners that I've been using. I think they aren't tuned right, so I was going to play around with them and see if I can make them more efficient. Will cast ports will work with Reil-type burners w/out problems?

Thanks for your excellent advice!

You should read Michael Porter's new book "Gas Burners for Forges, Furnaces & Kilns". Whole lot of solid research in there. Mr. Porter did a lot of the research for Ron Reil (see rreil's page to confirm) and his premise is that the state of the art is a long long ways ahead of the Reil-type burners. I have made one of Mike's coaxial-style burners including all of the beveling, and it works very well, but I don't have any hard data yet. His book does go in detail into how to cast burner ports, in fact his largest pipe burners require it because they're too hot for a stainless steel nozzle.

I'm not affiliated. This book isn't perfect, either. It needed editing it didn't get, but it's a whole lot better than what's on the Web.

GWE

Been paying 10 dollars for 5 pounds of the Satanite but it costs me 20 by the time it's shipped to me. Neat stuff and I found that purely reflective heat doesn't hold well when you put the metal to it. Heat soaks are a good way to stabilize temperture - just so it all stays inside the forge...

GA

I have not seen Michael Porter's book, it's on my "want list" though. As far as the shaped burner ports go. They extend the life of burner nozzles by reflecting heat back towards the forge interior instead of having heat build up around the nozzle. They are basically conical shaped, hard refractory ports. They are secured to the forge where the burner enters the forge. They are dimensioned to surround the burner nozzle. Might be more trouble than they are worth in a forge but if you have the time. A glass "tank" furnace runs 24/7 at between 1850? and

2400?f. so nozzle erosion is a much bigger problem than in a forge that runs intermittently.

GG

Well that's settled in a later post I guess. ;)

Why the big hurry?

"takes me longer when I get in a hurry" -alvin

If you were just a regular-joe I'd be nicer but you got .edu at the end of your address. :)

Information first, constuction and use later, not the other way around you big dummy. :/

Ever heard the phrase "educated idiot" before, JP? ;)

Alvin in AZ

Well, I figured I'd get roughly one years worth of work out of the forge, more-or-less. I just don't think ther's going to be a big rush on recoating it.

Uh... I'm really not sure what to say about this. Are you trying to say "regular Joes" can't work at a university? There's all sorts who work here: janitors, groundskeepers and Nobel Lauriat's.

What's the worst that'll happen--I waste ten or twenty pounds of propane because the burner isn't as efecient as possible? I realize it's important to understand what you're doing, but don't you think there's a time to just get on with it and start pounding some metal?

Who says I'm educated?

Jeff Polaski

Good on ya Jeff, don't let him give you any grief!

Ah now Alvin, seems to me I've heard this conversation before... Nothing like a bit of hands on to make the book stuff more "real".

GA

Boy' boy's, You are right J.P. sometimes too much information is NOT a good thing. To many choices, to many decisions can lead to indecision. For a newbie wanting to get at it asap, Get the ITC and have at it. Just get the forge lit! All the rest is just tweaking. Leave that to the "Choo-Choo's"

gg

Ok. Sorry 'bout all that. :/

Let me start over?

Yesterday after posting (and on the way into town for the gov't) I decided to offer this...

Get the book/s recommended, and after reading them you don't want to keep them, I'll buy them from you. I want to get them anyway, might as well get them from you as get them straight from Amazon? (save the packaging it'll make it easier)

Maybe processing too much information is a problem for some but not JP (the .edu janitor?) and what he's fixing to play with?

YMMV

"heck if I'd known -that- I could have saved some money and accomplished what I was after sooner" -what I picture you saying after diving in, then reading

BTDT :/

You claim to be short of money, a tiny bit of reading here on a.c.b already helped there. Or did it? :/

Alvin in AZ

indecision.

Thanks! I have gotten the brick pile lit a few times, and bashed a couple of pieces real good! I should have about 6 hours on Sunday to do some more, and I'm really looking forward to it!

To be honest, I'd like to stop spending money for a little while... I spent over $1,200 for an anvil (the 460 pound Habermann from oldworldanvils.com), maybe $150 on ceramic blankets, bricks, propane tanks, burner components, pressure gauge, fittings, etc.. for the forge, and about $300 for hammers, tongs, fire extinguishers, buzz box welder, (*) etc... At some point I just need to stop acquiring tools and get to work. After all, I don't want to be a *tool collector* or a technician, I want to be a *craftsman*!

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the kind offer, and I plan on getting the books eventually, but I'm going to get to pounding some metal for a while...

I've done a lot of research on the web, and think that, even though my forge & burners aren't going to be perfect, they certainly will be good enough for now. They will be as good as the tools that most smiths used for hundreds, if not thousands of years... and that'll be good enough for me.

Well, I'm certainly not a Nobel laureate. I fixin' to bash the crap out of some metal, and maybe making couple of useful items out of the deal.

There are a lot of very useful resources other than these books. There's a lot available on the internet. Don't think I'm just making this up as I go along... I've joined ABANA, done a lot of research, bought books, magazines from the ABANA sale. I have a fairly complete shop at home, and I can MIG/Stick/TIG weld. I have a pretty good idea what I'm getting into.

Yes, ti helped. Through google groups there's a lto more available that just the last couple of months worth of postings. And yes, with the above purchases and going through a divorce, I am a little short of cash right now. :-(

*One thing that I'm especially happy I got was a hand operated tractor-trailer lift that has a 1-1/2" dia. acme screw in it. I'm going to make it into a fly press. Should be a fun project! There's nothing about blacksmithg right now, but I'll post more at my web site

As the saying goes, 'there comes a time when you have to shoot the engineers and put the darned thing into production.' Reading is invaluable, the NG is invaluable, hanging around other smiths is invaluable, but at some point you've got to start pounding iron.

--RC

Which is truly invaluable.

I recall a fellow who started out heating small steel stock on his kitchen range. He made some very nice small items.

In hubris, a friend and I, who'd been smithing for a few years, almost wrote him off as a dilletante. Truth be told we were more newcomers to that particular market than he.

"Nothing much likely to come from that source," we thought.

Don't you believe it!

He started with what he had and worked from there. He is now an excellent smith/businessman who manufactures some magnificent products for the reenactor trade.

Talent will out, but excellence is a choice, earned by persistence.

But it wouldn't have happened if he hadn't started working iron somehow, some way.

There's really no other way to learn blacksmithing than to do it. Studying the books is great: I go back to the books and refresh my knowledge of techniques I don't use often. Many working professional smiths do too.

Learn the feel of hot steel under your hammer; how it moves; how it sounds when the steel is cooling down and you need another heat; how it looks or feels when you get it too hot. (Or worse, after you do, but it's too late)

If nothing else, you'll develop a consistent hammer swing, more endurance in your hammering arm, and a glimmer of how addicted you're about to become. :)