Tools from cold chisels?

Oooops, I messed up there, I meant the square stock ones aren't good creepers. The metal they are made from is prob'ly pretty good stuff don't remember a creeper ever breaking even when run over by a derailed car. :) Hmmm... seems like the U section one would get the "leading ear" broke off tho?

Sounds good. :)

I don't have any first hand experience with Hamons just read about them and everything I've read sez 5160 is the wrong steel for those.

Only one I know for sure where it's needed is on the Japanese stuff.

If a guy wants to sell stuff I'd recommend the "knife-list" it's an email list where big names hang out. Used to be on it and it was cool. There isn't much money in making swords and knives unless you get famous is what I gathered. $4 an hour was typical at the time until you started getting a name and that sometimes takes years.

I got off the "knife-list" about the time Bob Engnath died.

Cool idea for blacksmiths now that you explain it that way. :) ...Since (after) you pull it from the fire you can test it. :)

Large volume is for mutiple quenches of bigger stuff. The additives in the quenching oil are what stop the fires etc. Oil changes temperature a lot easier than water does so if they really do mean keeping the tank of oil from catching fire they are talking about -way- too small of a tank for what they were doing.

I used a 3/4 gallon olive oil can for a long time and never had that problem with ATF and was pre-heating the oil too. But I was doing thin knife blades tho. The real quenching oil just plain ol' works better for me, I get better results, less warping etc. Much less smoke, next to no fire, better results, what more could a guy ask for? ;)

Old oxygen cylinders are easy to come by, some are rejected and some are stolen and can't be re-filled, so ditched. Only one of those I found was wanted back by the owner, a copper mining and smelting outfit near Globe AZ and that was only because I offered take it to them.

Alvin in AZ

Just for interest I wanted to tell this story...

There was a local spring shop that heat treated springs and the guy claimed that re-heat treating springs didn't work out so good, he didn't know why. I keep thinking it has something to do with the surface rust, hydrogen or what it is, I don't know.

Anyway I figure that for sword making there is no real problem with used leaf or coil springs as long as the surface looks good. ??

Because the re-heat treated springs were, for the most part, working pretty good just that every once in a while there was trouble and in a business like theirs a few times is a few times too many. Back when, they had re-heat treated them for years and then the liability problems or whatever put a stop to it.

Also... Re-arching was done cold... with a hammer, and still done that way. :)

Hot rodders would hammer-cold the old leaf springs "from a frown into a smile" so the eyelets would be on the other side. :)

Alvin in AZ

This implies that you have another differential hardening method to use? Can I ask? Never too much information, just so little time.

Sounds like this railroad steel I've been playing with. After the first crack in the steel I got really cautions about working it hot and still managed to fracture it on the edge. I'v been thinking that I tried to move to much metal too fast. Maybe I just need to keep it even hotter...

Been thinking about using a cut off oxygen bottle for this. Lot of oil but the vertical thing makes sense for long blades. Thanks for the flash warning though, I thought that might be a problem with vertical tanks.

Local shop??!! Christ, our local steel supplier claims they can't get any spring steel of any kind. I have spent day and days trying different sources on the net to locate 1050 or 1060 in guages upward of a quarter inch. Finally had some luck with Security Steel.

By all means! Tell me what balance means to you? Is it in the taper of the blade, the counter weight of the hand grip and pommel? I'm working on a broadsword that is a straight blade for about 32 inches till just before the tip. The pommel I made for it is like a half pound and it has an extra heavy duty cross guard. I figure only Conan would actually try to swing this thing. I'm doing it as a dry run so to speak. I'll hang it on the wall when I get done.

Cheater...No offense! Sounds like you do this for a living. You have a Web site I can see your work? Do you make real money doing this? I keep looking for ways to get the hell out of the city and still make a living.

Greyangel wrote:

Massive snippage

I've found that 5160 works best as a deep hardening alloy, differential quenching was more effort that it was worth in the end. With swords, you want some spring in the final piece, to resist shock impact failure. There is a lot of bending force in a chop, with a homogenous blade you want some give.

Usually, a crack under forging means too cold, or too much movement in a single stroke. Don't try to forge a razor edge, that's what grinders are for. Leave the edge at least a sixteenth of an inch thick, then work it by stock removal.

Good plan, but weld it to a baseplate to increase the footprint on the floor. Tall oil-filled tanks are inherently tippy, and a couple layers of cinderblocks on the baseplate bring the center of gravity down low where it's safe.

Check the Yalu Pages for spring fabrication shops, they are usually quite friendly to makers, and they usually have scrap end piles to dig through for cheap.

Balance is a compromise between follow through inertia and manuverability. The closer to the guard, the better the mauverability, but the less the follow through inertia. Sort of like the difference between a sprint boat and an aircraft carrier. The traditional balance point for one-hand swords was one-seventh the distance from the guard to the point, which gives a fairly good feel in the hand, insures that the sword will hang properly on the hip, and maintains enough FTI to cleave through armor and keep cutting. Being a retired Airframe Mech, weight and balance are second nature. You have three weights to work with; the blade, the guard, and the knob. the blade will have a natural CG, and this can be found by balancing the blade on a round rod, like a teeter-totter. After you find the CG for the blade, you can start doing the math to find out how much each other weight will move the CG toward the desired balance point. Polish up those solid geometry skills, they'll help with design. Steel weighs 7.9 grams per cubic centimeter, alloy doesn't matter that much unless you use something with tungsten in it, which will be heavier. Brass and bronze are on average 7% heavier than steel per volume, but don't have the structural strength of steel, a serious consideration for guards. Weight in the knob will move the CG more than weight in the guard, having a longer lever arm to act upon, and that's what we're after, moving the CG to the desired location.. It's all first class lever math, do it on a cheapo calc. Weight X lever arm length = moment of inertia. Get the same moment on each side of the CG and the sword is balanced. I make a 30" blade parallel edge Viking sword, with a one hand grip. It takes a two pound knob to drag the CG back to four inches in front of the guard. This sounds like a lot, but the feel of the sword when it's moving is pure joy. One of my 'Large Lad' customers took down a four inch diameter oak tree in a single stroke. That's like chopping through a fence post... It's been lotsa years since I did the math, I'll dig into the airframe textbook and post the formulas for moving the CG here later.

"Real Money"? Nah, but you can make beer money at it, you might even pay the bills if you're Really Good and Really Fast. No website, no digital cameras, no scanner for the fotos my Photograher took before he croaked, po folks here.

Charly

So would you use it for a sword or just stick to knives? I thought the whole point of differential hardening was to provide the softer back and prevent breakage? Or are you talking about a happy medium between hard edge and flexibility?

I figured that I probably was hammering it too hard after the second time since I was pretty careful about keeping it hot. Dull red at the absolute minimum. I wouldn't bother trying to get the edge too thin. I want to be able to take off some layers to plane the steel out after the forge work. I *know* I'm not good enough to expect a nice flat surface without some serious work at the belt sander. I got a nice basic bevel on my last knife at the fire and then planed it smooth on the belt sander and finished up the edge with a side grinder and sanding disk. Worked pretty well. If I can harden it without cracking then I figure I got a good method going. I DON'T want to do much to the edge after it's hardened. Too labor intensive.

Good thought for all kinds of reasons. I'll do that.

Never even heard of one. I'll check it out.

Sounds like solid info. Please do add the formula. I skipped most of the math thing in high school and started at a real disadvantage when I realized I needed a better education to support my family. I took just enough math to get my electronics degree and I'm afraid that's getting a bit rusting in my career life. I do more logic than pure numbers these days and geometry hardly fits in.

That was kind of my impression of the bladesmith thing. I've noted that there are those who sell blades dirt cheap for the implied labor and those who ask a pretty respectable to almost outrageous price. I wonder about the available market for the latter type. It would be nice to be in the 2 to 4K sword market some day (when I'm old and grey with a LOT more experience). Interesting story: I spent some time working as a bowling ally mechanic. Got to be the most boring job in the world. You go disloge a stuck pin about every 20 minutes or so most of the time. Anyway I made a seudo katana out of mild steel in the back when I wasn't actually working and had it around for a while. I tweaked the blade hitting an old wooden chair with it and decided to put it out on a yard sale not long after. Now this thing was basic with a welded on cross guard and a leather wrapped handle. Not much to look at. I had it out in the yard sale for all of about 30 minutes when some guy gladly gave me 40 bucks for it. I tend to think that there are a lot of folks around with a gut desire to own a sword and pretty and polished isn't necessarily a selling point. Especially with so many stainless steel mock ups available these days for dirt cheap.

Leading ear? Leading flat edge of the channel? I did check spark on all this stuff today. I also found a big piece of what looks like some kind of double ended drill bit. About half and inch thick by an inch wide and about

-U section creepers- Yeah the "leading ear" ;) ...the ear that got hit first by the derailed empty car... I can picture it broken off and the second ear bent flat. Empty cars can be drug for miles and miles and not derail the rest of the train until it hits a switch or road crossing... even hop a road crossing some times. Heavy loaded cars dig up the ties and tear the rail out so the cars behind it derail all over the place. :)

I need to get back to you on that after doing my homework better. :)

But off hand it does sound like a drill bit... it is a drill bit if, the end of it (sometimes both ends) looks like a drill bit's cutting edge etc. Spark test next to a twist drill bit from your index, use the "butt" end and it won't hurt the drill bit.

If/when you find one of those I'm sure it'll be cobalt (inhanced) HSS like M-42. There were several sizes and I resharpened some of them just to see if it'd work and it worked "just ok". A guy could usually drill almost 40 holes with one drill bit if he did everything just right. Saw blades would cut only about 4 rails.

My feeling is the problem with the saw blades (plain ol M2 ;) was having to go down through the web was really hard on a few teeth in the middle of the blade (6 teeth per inch) then the same blade had to cut the base. Slow progress cutting the base is where the track foreman would get impatient and change out the saw blade. ...and give it to me. ;)

Also the surface of the rail is as hard as file teeth or hacksaw blade teeth from being work hardened. That was rough on the saw blades, that no drill bit ever had to contend with. :)

Alvin in AZ

This kind of thing happen often? I've only seen the one derailment down the road from my work. Hope not to see it happen again. Took 'em at least a week just to get all the debris out of the way. They had cars like shredded aluminum cans all over the place.

No question in my mind that the one piece is a drill bit. Larger than most I have seen but definately a bit.

Started hammering out one of the creepers tonight. Rough job. I've only started to get it straightened out and I'll be days drawing out to a usable thickness. Interesting thing; the straight length of the creeper is about seven or eight inches but as you know these are quite thick. I started reworking a leaf spring knife I have had around for several years waiting to be finished. its about two inches wide and a good quarter inch thick and long enough to qualify as a short sword if the design was different. It weighs less in the hand than the creeper does. I figure the creeper should easily come out to the size of one of those Japanese half swords (forget the name at the moment- old age creeping in). If I can get the forge weld thing working I could fuse two of them for a full sword blade. Lots of fuel getting there though.

My rail/anvil has worked out pretty well for hardness. After the banging I have given it you can hardly see any dents in it. I've been having a little trouble with introducing a twist into the steel that I'm working because of the roll off of the rail. Tonight I had two pieces I needed to flatten out and get on an even plane so I set the rail upside down in the the sand (using the spot where my seasonal pool sits) and hammered on the the bottom side of the rail. Actually worked amazingly well. The mass of the rail sits pretty stable in the sand and kneeling next to it places the work at just about the right height. I want to carve up a stump so that I can place the rail topside or bottom side up into it without it wanting to tip over and I can use which ever side works best for the job. The top is great for uncurling this railroad steel and the bottom has enough flat workspace for anything. Especially for really long stuff (like swords of course). Seems the railroad is the answer to a lot of my needs ;). Can't beat free stuff and there is more of the creepers and such than I'll ever need.

Greyangel

According the the guys working the UP it happens a lot less than it did when the SP was running things. :)

When talking about derailments they are characterized by the stuff piled up or odd ball collection of stuff piled up. Locations are ok but still, you and everyone there will always remember them by what was scattered all over the place. Like where you had to climb over "mountains" of carrots to get back and forth from the truck to the track or pole line, and so will everyone else. :) Or the lake of corn syrup with brand new bolts of cloth stuck in it, which was my first. ;)

Flat piece of steel with a tall ridge running down the center, both sides? The ridge is for indexing/centering it in the drill chuck.

Never figured out a good use for those things. :/

I don't know nuthin' about any of that :) but thought they'd be almost a foot straightened out. :/

I'm not a blacksmith but I am a pretty good hammer mechanic. ;) And over the years have used just about every little curve or flat spot including the holes for one job or another. One 2 foot piece pretty much stays standing on end and gets used that way more than the rest. It was cut off with the big 30"(?) self propelled chop saw and the rail end is flat and smooth and hard as a rock. :)

It heat-treated itself see? :)

I don't know anything about it for sure really. :/ But I see you needing something heavier when you get down to business. And I see the rail's base being too flimsy too. But don't -know-. :/

Check out the scrap yards in your area they sell stuff cheap and a big hunk of iron that you'll need help loading in your pickup is right down their alley. :) Call around first, some of the scrap yards won't let you in or even sell to the public at all but others are happy as anything to see you. Heck I usually end up helping if they get really busy. All the time looking to help the fork lift driver load stuff etc.

Alvin in AZ ps- I know that I can pound on a pin or part a hundred times as hard as I can and not budge it and switch to a heavier hammer and the pin or part will move the first lick... I also know how to fix worn/loose ball joints and tie rod ends to "be good as new" with a hammer... does that qualify me as an "ace hammer mecahnic"? :)

Yep, that's the one. I'm sure it would make something cool. Have to wait till the need comes up. I've decided I have all the blade material I know what to do with at this point ('cept for the really long ones unless I get any good at forge welding). I picked up a couple of odd chucks of metal the last time I was out there. I was gonna take a picture but haven't got to it yet. they're about 2x2x3 inches and sort of T shaped with some odd ridges a in different places. Look like they could almost be sort of a brake shoe or something. Anyway I put one on the grinder today and discovered that it has a REALLY odd spark trace. Very dull orange and stay lit for maybe four inches off the grinder then goes dark. I could hear chunks of it hitting things around me so I knew that pieces of it were flying but you couldn't tell from the spark. The oddest part though is that the sparks seemed to curve about 90 degrees at the end of the visible trajectory. Looks mostly like steel when your lookin' at it but it seems like it might be a bit soft. I was going to hammer on it but didn't get to it. Ring any bells? They have the most unique spark trace of everything I have tried so far. Got me really curious what kind of metals are in it.

Yeah, your probably right. I haven't actually measured it.

Hmm... there is a thought. I have a piece of rail in the driveway that is about 4 1/2 foot long. Used it for a skaters grind rail for a long time (don't ask). I never thought of standing it up. Might be handy.

If I can straighten out one those creepers on the topside and use the bottom for finish work then life is good. Nothing flimsy about the bottom side as far as I can tell. I worked a quarter inch thick blade that was about 24 inches long on it for touch up and don't think I disturbed the surface at all. The top is great for heavy work like drawing out. Time will tell.

Yeah, I could probably use a really big one around for the heavy stuff if I plan to use scavenged material a lot. Once I get it straightend and drawn out a bit the three pounder should be fine. Since I am new to this stuff I need some time to build up the right muscles. I tried working two pieces simultaneously a short while ago and discovered my arm was turning to spagetti in a big hurry. I am learning to pace multiple jobs at the fire though. Want to make the most of my propane at 2 bucks a gallon. I have been experiencing some elbow pain lately that is probably due to the hammering (or likely my poor form while doing so). I know enough about it to know I 'm not doing entirely as recommended. Still getting my work space figured out and I don't yet have a stump cut to the right size. I was talking with a buddy at work who does some blacksmithing and we're thinking up a design for a portable table that will seat the the rail either rightside up or upside down depending on the job at hand and think I will have something very usable soon. Probably not very good on a cement floor but it should be fine standing on dirt. Might have to work on some kind of vibration dampening if I want to use it indoors.

I expect so! ;)