citizen swiss lathe

Hi ppm,

I can't help you, but a guy posts here regularly that sells a competing machine that is as good and most likely better. He might be able to help you. However I must add that if you had bought from this guy (Dan M) you would not be posting a question on a newsgroup asking for ANY information on your machine. What the heck kind of machine dealer sold you this machine. Sales guys like Dan that actually know what they are doing are Gold these days. Anyway good luck I hope the service is better that the introduction to your machine.-Taz

"ppm" wrote in news:1146145001.778011.129240 @i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Buy a Tsugami and I'll send you whatever you need.

See ........Dan did help you!!!! -Taz

snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote in news:1146176664.368833.60340 @y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

LOL.

I don't have much that will compete with that machine (A16) price wise. They are built in China and Thailand. IIRC, they are around 78k list price.

The price on Citizens (Japanese) web site is given as 4,140,000 yen for the type II. That comes out to $36,000.00 USD. Add to that freight, duty, Marubeni's profit, and the local dealers profit and there you go, a 42 thousand dollar mark up.

My experience is that you always get what you pay for, and not one bit more.

If you are concerned with programming, Citizen sell Alkartpro that is programming software for their machines. I have seen a demonstration and all you do is draw up the part and the software generates the code. Unfortunately I have not had experience in using it but looked easy enough to use. What information do you require regarding the programming?

If you are still not getting your machine, you might want to check to see if your machine comes with the synchronized guide bush option. If it is not part of the package, you might wanna look into this, because if you are going to turn a lot of stainless steels, this option could be your best friend

You can't really save much money on collets, buying carbide laced ones are a must for good repeatability clamping, but what we have done in our office over the last year is, we started using steel type guide bush, in addition to the carbide laced ones that we had been using for the last 10 years. Some guy showed up one day, showed us a catalog and said he got some samples for us to test if we wanted to, and we've been using this steel types ever since, for turning brass, and aluminum. It doesn't get worn out that easily with these raw materials, and it's really cheap to own. We keep a few around as spares as well.

If you've never ever learnt anything about grinding tools for the sliding headstock type machines, I suppose now is a very good time to read up on this. You can't possibly use inserts for every single job. It wouldn't be cost effective in the long run. For aluminum and brass type jobs, we just plug on the 10X10mm high speed steel bit and it pretty much lasts forever.... We're still using the same bit today, from 2003, on one machine, and it only cost us about US5 to buy that bit.

If you're going to be working with gummy steels, you might want to re-learn your parting method. You can't actually just force your way through that process. Parting requires feel and finesse on the bloody sliding headstocks. You force your way through, and you could end up with a stuck tool in the material, which is a PIT to disengage, and you could also end up with material that is stuck in the collet, because the tool jamming and the spinning headstock, they don't stop exactly at the same time. And you could also end up with a broken guidebush.

So, my advice is, if you are a newbie, learn to write little pecking programs as you learn your way through the parting process. Peck and peck your way through. It takes a little more time than what we would normally do, for this process on the lathes, but it's worth the trouble, and it helps you keep the foul language levels down in your early weeks of learning

One last suggestion. You actually need to plan the tool positions, the cutting method, etc.... Try to stick the parting tool onto the last postion on the tool carriage, even if the first job you are testing with, requires only 2 tools, ie... for facing and parting, because as you get better, you'll need more tools and it's a pain to move tools around, because you got to be changing tool positions in your programs. Might as well decide what you gonna use for facing and parting, from day one and stick to these 2 positions.

I don't know how to say this, because my English is not so good, but for sliding headstock, the method of working your components is, you work in, process after process.... You cannot do a 50mm surface cut on a 8mm material with depth of 1mm and then come back later to make a E-clip groove of 1.6mm width at position 10mm, because your material OD is now 6mm but the guidebush is 8mm size, so you will never get this process done properly and accurately. You have to turn to 6mm, lenght 9 to 11 mm ( up to you ), then do the grooving for the E-Clip, and then continue to turn the body at 6mm, up to the length of 50mm. So, you need to sit and plan the work out

Your parting tool is also your stopper, after parting process finish, so make spindle speed down to 300RPM, open collet and go back to zero and then clamp and up RPM again, for next part. You can choose not to slow down spindle, but it is your choice.

If you have opportunity in your factory to buy material in different lengths, always work from the last bar end length, and then work out the number of components and cut to exact size. You'll be surprised at how much material you can save, if you calculate properly

In my office, I have to set the swiss type, the lathe and a few machine centres. In my opinion, the swiss type machine is the most accurate and efficient to operate machine if you know how to set it up properly. Speed is not everything, sometimes. Accuracy and able to finish work on time depends on your preparation.

Good luck

"ppm" wrote in news:1147517355.672601.242150 @j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Here are a few "rules of thumb"

Do your I.D. work first or simultaneous with the O.D.

Work progressively down the part in order to avoid pulling out of the land inside the bushing.

You should use a driven bushing for pretty much anything over 1/4" in diameter.

Wipe off the bars and inspect them for problems such as deep dings, scratches, burrs, tape, paint, etc..

You need ground stock for parts that have a total tolerance of .0005" or less on diameter. Or if the roundness tolerance is tight. Variation in bar diameter won't cause much if any variation in size on your turns, but variation in diameter will cause out of roundness problems.

Bent bars will cause concentricity problems.

If you are drilling small holes on the main spindle, it is best to stick the stock out (Z1) and drill with the Z2 axis. Although I don't think that's an option on that model.

Buy some diamond lapping compound so you can lap the guide bushing when needed.

Tools with negative leads will cause lobing on the beginning of a turned diameter. Use a zero degree lead whenever possible.

The A16 is lightweight and not very rigid IMO. Use positive rake tools and moderate feed rates.

Iscar make the best insert cut off tools. But if your parts are small, say under 1/4" in diameter, you might be better off grinding your own brazed tools. Kennametal and Toshiba sell a parallelogram type cut off that mounts on the side of the holder and stands upright. They are available in narrow widths with positive rakes and ground angled face for cut off.

Speaking of small parts, if your parts are short use an opposite hand cut off rather than an extended nose collet. Extended nose collets suck and should be avoided where possible. The exception would be for small bar stock say anything under .125". Then there really isn't much choice as the bar will have to stick out so far to reach the cut off it will deflect.

If your parts are over about 2-3/8" in length you will have to re-chuck, so plan accordingly.

Learn what a backturn tool is and how to make one. You can buy them nowadays but not all of them are any good.

Take passes when milling. You will have to figure out what the machine can handle. My guess would be around .020" - .04" DOC in mild steel. You want high rpm, high feed rate. If the end mill chatters or is noisy you'll go through milling spindles like shit through a tin horn. I've been in Citizen shops where they have drawers full of spare milling spindles. You could hear the chatter out in the parking lot. Sheesh. If it's chattering fix it. Drop the rpm, kick up the feed, whatever.

Make up a set of ejector tips for the sub spindle ahead of time. Organize the work area. Buy a set of metric ball driver hex keys. Figure out which cutting oil suits the work you do. I prefer Blaser Vascomill or Hangsterfers Hardcut. The grade will depend on the materials you commonly cut.

Get tooling catalogs from Iscar, Kennametal, Toshiba, Kyocera, Mitsubishi, Southwick and Meister, Genevieve, Hardinge, KEB, Whizcut, and Alouette for starters.

Consider using Kennametal KM12 quick change tooling. On that POS you'll have to remove the holder to change the insert, so you might as well use the quick change. Wait, scratch that. The A16 takes 10mm or 3/8" shank tooling so KM is not an option. Hmm. Use Whizcut tools where possible. The insert can be removed from the back side of the holder. Otherwise consider using brazed tools that you grind yourself. I think the new Mitsubishi catalog has similar holders. NTK makes them as well. So add them to the catalog list.

If you plan on overlapping front and back side drilling, you should consider buying double ended holders that have an adjustable centerline on one side. As the double ended holder that come with it are fixed, there is no way to offset for misalignment on both ends simultaneously.

There is a new line of quick change I.D. tooling for Swiss. I can't find the link but IIRC, it's called AQC. They are located in Bradenton, Fl. They are an offshoot of American Torch Tip, so if all else fails call them.

That's all I have time for. Oh yeah, RTFM until you get it.

As some others have mentioned before, you really need to plan your work and get your operations in the correct order, such is the nature of the machine. You must have good quality bar, we're still trying to drum that into our planners heads. We just resolved an incident where a 2-3 inch long component kept on bending and throwing out the concentricity. By using a stress relieved and annealed bar and it turns fine now. Plan your tooling and try and use family of parts concept where possible. There are so many tips that can be suggested but I suppose you have to be more specific. Don't be daunted by what is ahead, once the Citizen is up and running you will realise the benefits over conventional lathes. All the best!!!

I don't think so, but if it is something small, and simple to produce, then I prefer to use a swiss type machine, especially if the qty is 1,000 pcs or more. I think lathe is more flexible in terms of tool options. SOmetimes I get really sick and tired of grinding tool bits and then when we are about to get done with the bit, the bloody carbide falls off. Personally, I try to fit all lathe work onto the swiss type machines if possible and leave the lathes as secondary, but there's another person in my office who prefers to lathe everthing. It's choice I think

"adchin" wrote in news:44693083$1 snipped-for-privacy@news.tm.net.my:

Check out some of these links.

Thanks Dan

We've tried whizcut. However, when you convert the selling prices of these products, multiplied by 3.7 of our currency to the US Dollar and ad in the import duties of 30%, everything becomes very unaffordable. I am using Mitsubishi for Lathe work. They are much better than the Sumitomo that I use, but in my country, Mitsubishi is limited stock models, so Sumitomo still plays a big part in our tooling catalog.

Sandvick? Iscar? Seco?

Once you go swiss, you'll never go back. Trust me. And after you've figured out how to solve all the problems you will face, for the first 6 months of working on the machine, you'll never go back and wish that you had more work coming in, so that you can get another one, and another one.

Ive got a serious and motivated buyer for Star AL 16s or 20s here in So Cal, if anyone runs across any for sale.

Gunner

"If thy pride is sorely vexed when others disparage your offering, be as lamb's wool is to cold rain and the Gore-tex of Odin's raiment is to gullshit in the gale, for thy angst shall vex them not at all. Yea, they shall scorn thee all the more. Rejoice in sharing what you have to share without expectation of adoration, knowing that sharing your treasure does not diminish your treasure but enriches it."

- Onni 1:33

"adchin" wrote in news:446982a1$1 snipped-for-privacy@news.tm.net.my:

I see you are in Malaysia. If Japanese brands are available then the Mitsubishi stuff is brand new and it might be a while before they stock it. But if you apply some pressure maybe that will speed things up. Other good Japanese Swiss tools would be NTK, Kyocera (Ceratip), Toshiba, and Sumitomo.

We have a similar problem here, where there are some very good Japanese tools but they are not stocked or imported into the U.S. That has started to change lately. So I hope it changes for you as well.

I picked up an NTK catalog for Swiss tooling in Japan several years ago at the JIMTOF show. I still can't order most of it here.

With the exception over the last 10 years, of seeing Sumitomo and Seco, come in directly, as manufacturer retail outlets, to stock it all up, I don't think much has improved for other brands. However, I may not be very accurate in this assesment, because we've not changed brands over the last

10 years, and just added Mitsubishi recently. But from a working perspective, I am happy with the tools that we are using.

I don't even think that there's anyone carrying this brand in Malaysia. I think there is a distributor in Singapore though. So, in a sense, you are luckier. You can at least get some stuff. My situation is like, you'd be in California, and ordering the stuff from Mexico or Canada.

Dan,

The Japanese spec machines and machines for export, they have different components and meet different specifications. That's why the Japan machine, for Japan use only, it's always cheaper. I have 2 units of Star RNC-16, bought at about the same time, one being for export to Malaysia and the other, a 1 year old used, Japan spec unit. There are differences, when you run the machines. In my opinion, I always thought that the Japan use, machine, was not so good. The other difference in pricing is, the Japan-use machines, they don't have options like part catcher, unit counter, etc.... that export machines have, and all these useful little functions do cost a bit and add up to the costs of the machine.

Thanks for your inputs. IT really is a good starting point for me. If you could share more of your experiences in this swiss lathe esp. programming it will be great. thanks once again