Shop A/C Notes, Q's

Awl--

Sorta seems like mini-split is the solution to my shop A/C, given that my shop is surrounded by 18" stone walls (other than the rickety garage door), altho other options seem possible--like bonafide central air! Prices to follow, from the Klimaire company--www.acfactoryoutlet.com.

But first, how does EER compare w/ SEER?? Is there a conversion? Is one routinely higher than the other?

Next, suppose I have three one ton units, at 8, 10, and 12 EER. What is the relative diff. in cost to run them?

Next, I'm interested in other mfr's of mini-splits. Iny idears who makes them?

Data on Klimaire you might find inneresting, basically comparing mini-split w/ central air, and some other variables.

Mini-splits, all with *heat pumps*, all 10 eer:

1 ton, $499 1.5 ton, $659 2 ton, about $800

Beats the crap out of prices on PC Richards crappy portable units, w/miserable eer's.

Now, compare central air, where the inside air handler requires ducting, poss. minimal if you don't mind it just blowing out into the shop. :) These units are Fedders, supplied by Klimaire

1.5 ton: 10 seer, no heat pump, $675 12 seer, no hp, 737 12 seer, w/ hp, 969 2 ton: 10 seer, no heat pump, 698 12 seer, no hp, 875 12 seer, w/ hp, 1018 5 ton: 10 seer, no heat pump, 1190 12 seer, no hp, 1347 12 seer, w/ hp, 1600. Also have 3 and 4 ton.

The difference between the central air and the mini-split is that you have a larger floor-standing coil/air handler in the central, to which duct attaches, whereas the inside half of the mini looks pretty much like the front of a room A/C. The outside halves are similar. Given the apparent greater economy of the central air, and the greater versatility of the inside coil/air handler, makes central a good choice for all but the most cramped shops. And exposed ducting inside a shop is pretty basic stuff. Could use goddamm garbage bags/duct tape in a pinch. :)

But, I also want the A/C *staged* (like my rpc's!), and am wondering if despite a higher initial cost and no air-handling options besides the grill, a few 1-ton mini-splits isn't a better way to go. In commercial meters, staging will also sposedly lower your demand charge.

Note that all stuff mfr'd after 01/06 must be a *13* seer. So the above stuff is sort of going on close-out, altho 12 seer still seems pretty good. Klimaire says the new 13 seer units will proly be 15% hgher in price.

Curious about heat pumps: These units use "reverse cycle" compressors, I think, which basically runs the thermo cycle (and motor, iiuc) backwards. Note that *any* A/C unit is a heat pump. If you simply took your window unit and reversed it, you would have a heat pump! Sposedly, a reverse cycle compressor spares one the duct work/physically reversing the unit. Is it that simple, or is there more to it?

Also, in principle, one could turn any existing window A/C into a min-split by simply splicing the copper tubing, and re-locating the compressor/coils outside. And you would need another fan for the outside coils, as most room a/c's have one motor for both blowers.

Inyway, dats the state of my current homework. Innerested in other opinions, idears, etc. Would post this to alt.hvac, but those guys are effing weird, and they don't like DIYers--must be the freon.... :)

-- Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll

Reply to
Proctologically Violated©®
Loading thread data ...

Oh yeah, these prices are sans s&h ($150-200), and installation. Installation can be kept minimal if you do all the mechanicals yerself, and let an A/C guy connect the refrigerant tubing. The units come charged (R22, I believe), but have to be vacuumed out/recharged to do the piping--soft copper, flare fittings, I believe. Not sure what maximum distances would be for piping.

Reply to
Proctologically Violated©®

I've had no problems with older Mitsubishi splits, but recently had trouble with some EMI units turning into icemakers. Service is expensive and so are the parts. Use an externally mounted, conventional condensate pump. The new mini pumps that sit inside the unit are really troublesome.

Reply to
ATP*

Stone walls are one good reason to choose a Mini-Split HP, rather than a wall unit or Packaged Terminal AC unit (PTAC and PTHP are the big slide-out wall units used at motels) - but there are other considerations to be made. For one thing, if you need a lot of heat and you are in the snow belt, a Heat Pump isn't the best choice versus a furnace.

Heat pumps are frustratingly slow - you can't crank the thermostat up 20 degrees when you walk in and expect instant response - The air is 65F going in and 68F coming out, and with the airflow it feels like nothing is happening for quite a while. If your work hours vary a lot you'll spend a lot of extra money with a normal setback thermostat cranking it up automatically from 9-5 every Mon-Fri, even if you aren't coming in to the shop till Noon...

You could rig an Internet interface and turn the heat up when you leave the house to drive to the shop, but that gets complex. Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course... ;-)

What fuels or heat sources do you have available besides electricity? Natural gas is golden, Propane or fuel oil OK, a steam or hot water boiler can work...

How much heat do you need in the winter and how cold does it regularly get? Heat pumps start losing efficiency at around 45F and are chancy below 25F - 35F because the outside coils ice up trying to extract heat from outside air. You have to set up a two-stage thermostat and switch to a backup heat source - either Propane or Oil, or electric resistance heat.

Dozens - do some searching. And if some of them look the same, they are - Carrier also makes Bryant, Day & Night and Payne, so they can have 4 dealers in a small town with "different brands" - only the nameplates are changed to protect the innocent. Other mfgrs play the same game.

I would mount the air handler horizontally in the attic space, get it up above the normal working area. If you have Propane or Natural Gas available and you can punch a vent stack up through the roof, get a furnace rather than a heat pump - higher efficiency, much lower operating cost for heat.

And if your fuel source is intermittent, you can use a Heat Pump A-coil behind a fuel furnace, and switch over if the fuel runs dry.

The ducting doesn't have to be insulated if it is in the conditioned space and exposed - just get simple knock-down round sheetmetal ducting, hang it from flat strapping, and cut in a saddle register box aimed where you need it.

If the ducts are in an attic over an insulated space, just get flexible insulated ducting. Cut in a Tee-Y and a register box where needed. You start with a 16" round duct at the furnace plenum box, then a 16-14-6 Tee-Y and drop to a 6" register, then continue the trunk line with 14" duct and the next stop is a 14-12-6...

And don't discount packaged units if you don't want the air handler unit in the attic or hanging overhead - you can put a curb-mount package on the roof (heat pump or furnace heat) and the ducts go down inside the curb into the conditioned space - makes for a neat and tidy install, with very low chances of the roof leaking. The only big bugaboo is getting a crane to plop the unit on the roof.

I don't think the difference between a single 4-ton condensing unit compressor starting and two 2-ton mini-split compressors starting will amount to much, even under demand metering situations - piston compressors don't have that nasty a start surge, and the Scroll style are even better. You are much more liable to get hit hard by the demand surge of a 500A welder when you start making big arcs & sparks.

A lot more to it - the compressor keeps running the same way (Suction line in, Discharge line out), but there's a 4-way Reversing Valve that decides whether it's in Forward or Reverse. Whether to send the hot gas from the compressor discharge to the inside coil or the outside first, and which coil the suction line pulls from. The line between the two coils stays the same, but the flow does reverse in them.

And the refrigerant filter/drier you use has to be a special bi-directional one meant for use in a HP, or it would catch dirt one way and let it go when the system reverses. Imagine a 'diode bridge' of check valves around the filter element 'In' and 'Out' ports...

No, much simpler and cheaper to buy the right equipment. There are lots of little details to making a heat pump work, like metering orifices that are also spring loaded check valves and pop out of the way when that coil is the condenser rather than the evaporator. Then you got your defrost controllers, head pressure regulators, low-pressure and high-pressure cut-outs, lots of odd stuff.

Unless you want to earn your PhD in HVAC, you don't try converting a regular unit into a heat pump by yourself.

People in the HVAC-R business have a Sword Of Damocles hanging over their heads in the form of the EPA - if they say you vented refrigerant deliberately (the system was improperly modified) they can whack you for anywhere from $10K to a half million in fines, cash.

No insurance allowed, you can't buy personal liability or business insurance to cover your ass. The odds of them actually doing it to you are vanishingly slim, but not impossible. (And with my luck...) Even so, IMHO that tends to put a bit of a damper on experimentation and creativity.

-->--

Reply to
Bruce L. Bergman

PolyTech Forum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.