Subject
- Posted on
State space model problem
- 03-10-2008
March 10, 2008, 1:39 am
Hi,
Maybe this is a straightforward problem/question, but i am not sure
about how to proceed in the modeling of the following problem.
Let's consider the following two-dimensional control problem. There
are two objects, one larger one (M) and a smaller one (m). The large
object is placed at a horizontal surface with the assumption there is
no friction. The smaller object is on top of the larger object and
again friction is zero. However, the smaller mass is connected to the
large mass through a spring and a damper which are in the horizontal
plane. The initial position where also spring force is zero is when
the vertical center of the small mass is aligned with the center of
the large mass. Now, there are only four parameters which define this
system. The absolute position of big mass (M), let's call it (x1), the
absolute position of the small mass (m), which is( x2), the spring
coefficient (k) and the damping coefficient (d).
The input of the system we can control is position x1 and the
objective is to control the absolute position of x2.
The problem is how to write the state space representation and more
specifically what to do with x1, because this is the input to the
system. In case of most of these simple problems which are presented
in text books, the input is NOT position, but force. This would indeed
make the state space representation easy, but in reality (my
experimental setup) this is not the case. I can only feed a position
signal to the linear motor (which is the big mass M in this problem).
If I write the input vector u=[ x1 d/dt(x1)], I also have to control
the input speed d/dt(x1). But is this correct?
I appreciate all input!
Ewoud
Re: State space model problem
On Sun, 09 Mar 2008 22:39:34 -0700, westef wrote:
You're confused, and I'm not sure just what you need to hear to make you
less so, so I'm going to shot-gun some impressions for you to consider.
If you really control just the position of the big mass, then it's
velocity is immaterial. Just crack open your physics book, make a free
body diagram of your little mass, and write the equations with x1 as an
input.
If you want to take the linear motor's controller into account then you
have to understand its dynamics, or make an educated guess, and include
those into your state-space model.
If you want to limit the big mass's velocity by ramping its position
command, then you get a bit beyond basic state space modeling. Once you
settle on a controller that takes your desired big-mass position and
limits it's rate of change you can include that controller's dynamics
into your state space model, but if you are using a hard velocity limit
then your model will have some hard linearities in it that will be nearly
impossible to analyze in a sensible manner using linear systems
techniques.
--
Tim Wescott
Control systems and communications consulting
http://www.wescottdesign.com
Need to learn how to apply control theory in your embedded system?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" by Tim Wescott
Elsevier/Newnes, http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html
Re: State space model problem
On Mar 9, 10:39 pm, wes...@gmail.com wrote:
There must be more than that.
You are right to question this. It should be obvious that you can 't
just change the M's location instantly by changing x1. Moving mass M
instantly through space between two locations is what happens in star
trek transporters. That would require infinite power. Always remember
that is takes force/energy to move something. Positions don't move
linear motors. You are obviously missing something in your problem.
There must be more between the input position and the position of mass
M. There must be a control signal to a drive or power unit that
creates the force you are talking about. This control signal could
be open loop but if the input is a position then there must be a
closed loop controller in system. The error between the target and
actual position creates the control signal which controls the power or
the force depending on how the drive or power unit is set up. If the
drive just converts the voltage to current and the force is
proportional to the current then you have something like
M*x1''+D*x1'=Kpowerunit*u(t). u(t)=Kcontroller*(r(t)-x1(t)). r(t)
is the reference or target position, velocity, acceleration.... r(t)
can now change instantly between two locations but x1 will have to
follow the laws of physics to get to the destination.
This must be a student question. I can see why there are so many
confused people out there if this is how control is taught in college.
Ewoud, I would at least give you a passing grade for questioning the
validity of the problem. Many just do the math without concern for
reality.
Peter Nachtwey
Re: State space model problem
Dear Tim and Peter,
Thank you very much for this nice reply. Indeed i am a student and i
was confused by making the transition from theory to practice. In all
schoolbook examples, input is force, but for my linear motor, the
(reference) input is position, which confused me. To keep things
simple i wanted to ignore the dynamics and control of the linear
motor, which is clearly a mistake. Indeed there is a closed loop
controller present in the linear motor. However, the manual of the
linear motor does not provide good details of both controller and
working principle. Your answers cleared up the mystery eventhough i
still wish the reality of star trek transporters would be available to
us :). I guess I still have some work laid out for me.
Warm regards,
Ewoud
Re: State space model problem
Dear Tim and Peter,
Thank you very much for this nice reply. Indeed i am a student and i
was confused by making the transition from theory to practice. In all
schoolbook examples, input is force, but for my linear motor, the
(reference) input is position, which confused me. To keep things
simple i wanted to ignore the dynamics and control of the linear
motor, which is clearly a mistake. Indeed there is a closed loop
controller present in the linear motor. However, the manual of the
linear motor does not provide good details of both controller and
working principle. Your answers cleared up the mystery eventhough i
still wish the reality of star trek transporters would be available to
us :). I guess I still have some work laid out for me.
Warm regards,
Ewoud
Re: State space model problem
On 3ÔC210ÈD5, ÏC2ÎE71ÊB139·D6, wes...@gmail.com wrote:
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