Backfeeding with a portable generator - REAL safety concerns???

PS: What about grounding? I believe OSHA regulations require the generator (manufacturers) to have its own grounding system (being grounded to the chasis inmost cases). So by backfeeding into the house system, what safety procedures should I take to ensure a proper/safe ground?

TIA Friday

Well, given that you already know this is against code....

Here are some items to double check.

If your cord includes a neutral, then you don't really need a separate 110 cord. Just turn on 110 branch circuits one at a time and they will get powered from the neutral and one of the 'hot' leads in dryer circuit.

Since the service panel neutral will be connected to grounding rod (if

Of course, if you just run extension cords into home (110 & 220 versions) and unplug equipment from house wiring and plug into extension cords, you don't have any problems at all. Put suitable plug/recpt on your furnace and you can run that on an extension cord too. No code problem, little hazard at all.

daestrom P.S. And why not microwave? P.P.S. *NOBODY* ever *intends* to forget to open the main. And yet..... (sh__ happens).

Thanks daestrom - good, practical tips.

Yes, it is. It's a VERY old house (150+ years), but was rewired about

What might cause that to happen? What would the consequences be?

Of course

I was considering that. But with only two 110 recepticles on the generator.... (And it _WOULD_ be nice to be able to walk into a room and simply flip on the overheads).

I don't know enough about the subject to make use of those 220 outlets. The only thing in the house that runs on 220 is the clothes dryer. Are there "converters" I could purchase to allow me to make use of those 220 recepticles(on the generator) as you suggested? One is a standard NEMA L6 and the other is a four-prong recepticle marked "120/240 - 20 amp".

(I only have a 5kw generator (about 6250 surge). If the boiler pump AND refrigerator both kicked on while I was running the microwave...)

Yes. Granted. But that only happens to stoopid people. Right?

Thanks d;- PS are you a certified electrician? I ask, because what worries me most, is that According to an article I read on one power company Website: "Main breakers _CANNOT_ be trusted to create a clean break." Sounds like scare tactics, but... Is there anything to that? Could a surge "jump" across the main breaker when the grid comes back up????

That you, or someone WILL forget to open that breaker and kill someone. At which point the heavens will open and your life (and the wife and kids of the dead people) will be turned to shit, now and forever amen.

Not to mention if the power comes on, and you happen to still be connected..the transformer on the pole explodes milliseconds after your genset turns into a small but lethal fireball.

Go to Home Depot, etc and buy a transfer switch. They are commonly available now for less than $200. You can do it yourself if you are handy.

Oh..and never check for gas leaks or the level in your fuel tank with a lit match. Based on your post..I had to add that, in order to save your life or the life of someone else, as it appears you dont think very far ahead. Shrug.

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child - miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless. Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke

i don't know about the power co. guys up there, but around here, if you can't show them a transfer switch in your lit house, you may be out of electricity for a loooonnnnggg time. they'll pull the meter for you. and you'll fight like hell to get it back. if you think it's expensive to install a transfer switch, wait til they require a complete re-inspection of your electrical system, and nit-pick it to death. you'll wish you had gone to home depot and bought a small (60 amp) switch and had it wired in on your essential needs. no, i don't work for the power co. but i know some who do. i put mine in. good luck, sammmmm

Check out

Life in prison for manslaughter / negligent homicide if you get it wrong and the fact that you will have destroyed a life and probably a family.

Safety verses cost is always a factor. If 50,000 people did it your way how many do think would die? You might get by, or you might get someone killed. Is it worth the risk? If that somone is child of yours you might consider the value of installing a transfer switch using an insured, licensed, and bonded contractor.

OSHA rules only apply to employee workplaces and do not apply to private homes.

Yer an idiot. What do you think supervisors do in an outage? They drive around look for damage and priortize work for line crews. When they see you house with the lights on they know that you have a generator. They may or may not know you have a transfer switch. They'll be back to check. As someone else noted you'll be in the dark for a while untill they wre convinced it's done right. If you do hurt of kill someone most power companies in concert with the union will prosecute you vigerously. If you don't go to jail you may be bankrupt. It's fair, if they can keep terminally stupid people so poor they can't afford a house or a generator they may save someone's life.

Want a clean break? Pull the meter.

CC

The BEST answer is to FIX the grid so it will NOT go off!

If you always do what you say you will do NO PROBLEM. Invaribly when there is a problem it is caused by someone who knew what they were doing, they had it all planned out, they just made a mistake and property or life was damaged. While you may be willing to take this risk should some poor linema working out in the cold have to unknowingly take it too.

I was gonna suggest he trade the 5KW unit in on one that will power his whole house. He's gonna need it when the utility shuts him off.

1. Generator runs out of gas while you are out of the house. Lights go off.
2. Your hard-drinking Uncle Ernie is visiting. He troubleshoots problem. "Hey, lookit this! The main breaker was off!" Flip! Nothing happens, and he passes out.
3. You come home, refill generator, and start it.
4. Utility lineman, working on the downed power line a mile away, gets fricasseed.

In other words, you are setting a booby trap that can be set off by

Remember that those linemen have relatives, and those relatives may have guns. If they don't, then plenty of people will cheerfully loan them guns.

That cord should not be called a "Suicide Cord" but, rather, a "Negligent Homicide Cord". I can't believe any self-respecting engineer, technician or electrician would even entertain this conversation. During a storm, utility linemen have enough to worry about without any idiots using that set up.

It (backfeeding power through the main) happens only to people who have set up a system that makes it possible. Some would call them "stoopid". Others might use stronger language.

breakers can and do go bad. usually they go intermittent or open. its hard to predict just what will happen each time power is restored, sometimes nothing bad happens. i think the greater worry would be that you might have taken a lightning hit through the panel. i spend a lot of time repairing industrial equipment after a storm as moved through. a lot of times the root cause is matter speculation. what i have is a melted gob of goop that used to be a component. surge suppressors (TVSS) help protect your stuff but as they are installed after the main breaker or fuses the "mains" have to survive the current hit.

for what its worth, when i service equipment, after i turn off the breaker i touch all formerly "live" connections with a grounding stick. i do this every time i turn power off before putting my body in harms way.

id like to add my voice to those that recommend you not proceed with the plan as you described.

for some reason it puts me in mind of a church in my home town that was so poor that it ran an extension cord from the house next door to get electricity. when city building inspector became aware of it he of course made then remove it. the very next sunday the reverend opened his sermon in a loud booming voice with: "and the lord said let there be light... then the devil came and took it away"

i think there may be a solution to your problem that can implemented within your budget and be relatively safe sane and legal.

i think you have take a prudent first step by asking for opinions of people who appear to be knowledgeable.

the nest step is to discuss the matter with the local electrical inspector. he may suggest a scheme you both can live with. he may even point you toward an election who has something used on hand that will work just fine. is your power company NIMO? just curious

If anyone got killed due to an inadvertent back feed, it would only be because the lineman or other workman violated safety procedures. A workman must treat a conductor as live unless he has tested and then grounded it. I am a graduate electrical engineer, retired from the electric utility business, and formerly supervised line crews among other things.

One of my crews worked on the restoration phase on Long Island after hurricane Gloria. Contrary to doctrine, the first priorities were to restore power to the motel they were staying in and then to the best restaurants. They did work horrific hours. I will never forget what one told me on their return - "Jesus John, there is no way I could eat another lobster." There was an incident where there was an accidental breaker closure that would have otherwise energized the line section on which they were working but they were protected by their grounds.

Many utilities require that points of protection must have a "visible break" so neither enclosed circuit breakers nor transfer switches are considered safe for personnel protection purposes. I do believe that it is a code violation if the generator does not carry a fourth ground wire but who is worried about the code during an ice storm?

Regards,

John Phillips

Pulling the meter will only work in a home with a SINGLE through feed meter. If the home has a second meter for the air conditioning or for the water heater then that will serve nicely as the back feed route. If the service to the building is four hundred or more amperes then the meter is likely to be of the sampling type and pulling it will not effect the power to the home. If a feed through meter is pulled under load or if you fault it out by using improper technique you can receive fatal arc burns. Some meters have bypass switches built into them that will close automatically if the meter is removed. Such bypass switches are often combined with the meter base jaw release.

The set up you are suggesting is just one mistake away from a fatality. I pray that the fatality will be you rather than a lineman who is working a twelve hour shift to try to restore your power.

If the person killed turns out to be your teenage son, your spouse, that ever so helpful neighbor while you are away then I hope you are just as glib with the judge at your manslaughter trial as you are in cyberspace. Just once I would like to see one of you know it alls have to face the consequences for your self centered actions.

-- Tom H

C> snip..