High Gas Prices

Isn't that what you just proposed? Government take over of the auto gasoline industry?

Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus

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(2) There must be enough participants on both sides of "free market" transactions, i.e. both buyers and sellers, so that no one individual/entity or small group of entities can control supply/demand and thus prices.

FWIW -- If socioeconomic "progress" is to occur, no single entity or small group of entities can be allowed to block it, particularly by using the regulatory powers of the state under several pretexts.

Reply to
Stormin Mormon
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As a solution, George proposes a rapid take over of the industry by government. Not my idea of "free".

Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus

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If an industry can buy political power to make favorable regulations for itself it is NOT a free market.

If an industry is subsidized by the government, it is NOT a free market.

If lobbyist from other industries (specifically corn in this case) can buy political power to cut itself in, it it NOT a free market.

Hells bells, kids. There is NO free market in the united States anymore - except for the many various black markets...

So, who is handing out Kool-Aid here?

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

Just wait until prices become what they are now in Europe.. Normal gasoline costs about 1.7 euro per litre.. That is about

5.7 USD/gallon.. About 70% of the price is taxes..

Your gasoline is STILL very cheap..

Reply to
Kristian Ukkonen

You let the weenies tax the crap out of you.

It's higher than that in parts of California.

Reply to
Michael A. Terrell

Gasoline in the US only APPEARS to be cheap, because of Government subsidy....

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"But fuel subsidies tend to benefit the rich (who own motor vehicles) more than the poor." "Only 8 percent of the $410 billion in government fuel subsidies worldwide went to the poorest 20 percent of the population (International Energy Agency - estimates, 2010)."

Reply to
PrecisionmachinisT

===============

Indeed this can be confusing.

The important point is that if prices are going up while the supply of raw materials is going up, and/or there are excessive numbers of "coincidences" knocking out key production and transportation facilities reducing availability, the "free market" in that particular segment no longer appears to be operational.

It is also worthwhile to remember these are not your typical quicky-mart grocery store on every corner, but rather gigantic quasi public utilities with an actual or quasi monopoly/oligopoly market position in highly critical economic sectors.

The reason for the judicial review is to have a disinterested 3rd party look at the accumulated data to verify that the principle of supply and demand has been compromised, and/or one too many "coincidences" have occurred.

The reason I used the phrase "expedited operational control" was that ownership should remain with the private owners i.e. share holders, the same workers should report to work, etc. the difference being that production scheduling, shutdown for maintenance, etc. would temporarily be under outside control, the operations and safety programs could be closely reviewed/monitored by outside experts for contradictions, lapses, omissions, etc., and all documentation, logs and records secured for later review, including unexplained/unjustified supply delays, charges or plant outages.

While it is possible after thorough review of the records and investigation/interviews it will be determined that ?s**t happens,? and everyone did everything right, this is most doubtful, and the accountable individuals and groups can and should be identified, terminated from employment, and if possibly criminal charges brought against them such as conspiracy, price fixing, wire fraud, tax evasion, and obstruction of justice.

Reply to
F. George McDuffee

Gunner on Mon, 08 Oct 2012 23:45:39 -0700 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Of course, Governor "save the Smelt" Brown has asked the California Pollution control board to permit the sale of "Winter" gas a month early, saying a month won't make that much difference. The question unasked is "Why then have we been waiting so long in the past?"

-- pyotr Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers does it take to change a lightbulb.

Reply to
pyotr filipivich

Socialist.

Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus

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Indeed this can be confusing.

The important point is that if prices are going up while the supply of raw materials is going up, and/or there are excessive numbers of "coincidences" knocking out key production and transportation facilities reducing availability, the "free market" in that particular segment no longer appears to be operational.

It is also worthwhile to remember these are not your typical quicky-mart grocery store on every corner, but rather gigantic quasi public utilities with an actual or quasi monopoly/oligopoly market position in highly critical economic sectors.

The reason for the judicial review is to have a disinterested 3rd party look at the accumulated data to verify that the principle of supply and demand has been compromised, and/or one too many "coincidences" have occurred.

The reason I used the phrase "expedited operational control" was that ownership should remain with the private owners i.e. share holders, the same workers should report to work, etc. the difference being that production scheduling, shutdown for maintenance, etc. would temporarily be under outside control, the operations and safety programs could be closely reviewed/monitored by outside experts for contradictions, lapses, omissions, etc., and all documentation, logs and records secured for later review, including unexplained/unjustified supply delays, charges or plant outages.

While it is possible after thorough review of the records and investigation/interviews it will be determined that "s**t happens," and everyone did everything right, this is most doubtful, and the accountable individuals and groups can and should be identified, terminated from employment, and if possibly criminal charges brought against them such as conspiracy, price fixing, wire fraud, tax evasion, and obstruction of justice.

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

It probably seems like that, but there is more to it.

Texas alone can hold most of nine European countries. And ALL of Europe would fit in the eastern sea board.

Our nation developed on the premise of cheap transportation because we have so bloody far to go.

Now the cheap gas is gone, but the cities and states didn't shrink accordingly.

In London, for instance, you can get around very well without a car. But that's not possible in any of our cities. They are just too spread out.

Reply to
Richard

Shame on you, Christopher. That's not what he said, and you know it.

Reply to
Richard

I do not know why you think this time it's different. Every other time the oil industry has been investigated, there has been no evidence of misconduct.

The big problem in Calif. is that the state requires special blends of gasoline to be sold in the state. Only certain refineries can produce these blends, so when something happens to one or two of those refineries, gasoline can not be brought in from othe refineries. That is why Calif. gas is so high. Well that and taxes.

Dan

Reply to
dcaster

I don't have the old message at hand. But, my memory of what George suggested, was rapid government take over of the gasoline industry in case of trouble. That was exactly what he proposed, and exactly what I quoted.

If you have the message, feel free to repost it.

Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus

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Shame on you, Christopher. That's not what he said, and you know it.

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

OK, here's the George proposal. Someone read this, and tell me it's not a government take over of the industry.

Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus

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=============

1st point -- Why are you wasting time and energy posting to a newsgroup? If you feel a need to vent do it where it might do some good, i.e. to your congressional representatives.

2nd point -- The people of California are getting "Enroned" again by a contrived shortage.

Below find the webmail I sent my congressmen on this topic. Feel free to use all, any or none of it. If you don't know who your congressmen are, or are too cheap to buy a stamp (like I am), they can be identified, and almost all have webmail at house.gov and senate.gov. To make nagging easier I suggest bookmarking their webmail sites in your browser. Suggestion: compose your email off line, spell/grammer check, and paste to the web mail message window.

===== start of memo to congress ===== TO: Senator Pat Roberts Senator Jim Moran Representative Mike Pompeo

From: George McDuffee

Date:

07 Oct 2012

Subject: The "free market" is a market, *NOT* a suicide pact.

RE:

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Gasoline surged as refinery and pipeline shutdowns increased concern that supplies aren't adequate to meet demand.

It is clear the citizens of California are again being "Enroned" or price gouged through artificial shortages resulting from a supplier conspiracy. In 2000-2001 it was a contrived electricity shortage [

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] and today it is a contrived gasoline shortage, created by faux refinery damage and pseudo pipeline impairment, apparently resulting from intentional "accidents" or self-sabotage.

Such blatant displays of corporate greed and hubris cannot be tolerated, and you are strongly urged to direct the Federal Trade Commission, the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, and law enforcement agencies such as the FBI and IRS to immediately investigate these "shortages," pending Congressional hearings. Of the utmost importance is the seizure and preservation of all letters, memos, notes, emails, tweets, phone recordings, phone logs, trip itineraries, etc. for Congressional and grand jury review.

While on the surface this may appear to be a state problem, which should be dealt with by the state of California, the reality is the likely conspirators are supranational corporations, for the most part beyond the reach of the state agencies, and/or entities/operations located outside the state, such as the pipelines. Thus it is essential the full investigative and legal resources of the Federal government be used. It is suggested this investigation should assume organized and ongoing criminal activity from the start, thus justifying the application of the RICO statutes and methodology, e.g. wire taps, bank record/asset review, use of confidential informants, involuntary grand jury testimony, sealed indictments, etc.

While it is too late to prevent severe economic disruption in California and the adjacent states from this contrived gasoline shortage, to prevent any repetition of this extortion and gross abuse of market position, it is suggested that legislation be enacted establishing the contingent authority of the state and federal government to immediately seize operational control, on a highly expedited basis with judicial approval, of suppliers, refiners, manufacturers, transporters, etc. where shortfalls are occurring not directly attributable to supply shortages or an excess of "coincidences" have occurred. Another example of possible proactive/preventative legislation in this particular case would be a criminal statute with possible prison time and large [individual not corporate] fines for taking more than one major refinery in a market area off-line for "turnaround" at a time. Other than restricting the supply of distillate fuels in that market, there is no rationale for doing so. Indeed, in many cases the availability of specialty technicians and equipment, needed for a refinery "turnaround," means only one area refinery can be serviced at a time, no matter how many refineries may be shut down.

===== end of memo to congress =====

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

Dear Richard / Cavelamb:

Here is the text in question. Please read it slowly through, and see if F. George proposes government take over of the industry. I saw that, in my reading.

Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus

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=============

1st point -- Why are you wasting time and energy posting to a newsgroup? If you feel a need to vent do it where it might do some good, i.e. to your congressional representatives.

2nd point -- The people of California are getting "Enroned" again by a contrived shortage.

Below find the webmail I sent my congressmen on this topic. Feel free to use all, any or none of it. If you don't know who your congressmen are, or are too cheap to buy a stamp (like I am), they can be identified, and almost all have webmail at house.gov and senate.gov. To make nagging easier I suggest bookmarking their webmail sites in your browser. Suggestion: compose your email off line, spell/grammer check, and paste to the web mail message window.

===== start of memo to congress ===== TO: Senator Pat Roberts Senator Jim Moran Representative Mike Pompeo

From: George McDuffee

Date:

07 Oct 2012

Subject: The "free market" is a market, *NOT* a suicide pact.

RE:

formatting link
Gasoline surged as refinery and pipeline shutdowns increased concern that supplies aren't adequate to meet demand.

It is clear the citizens of California are again being "Enroned" or price gouged through artificial shortages resulting from a supplier conspiracy. In 2000-2001 it was a contrived electricity shortage [

formatting link
] and today it is a contrived gasoline shortage, created by faux refinery damage and pseudo pipeline impairment, apparently resulting from intentional "accidents" or self-sabotage.

Such blatant displays of corporate greed and hubris cannot be tolerated, and you are strongly urged to direct the Federal Trade Commission, the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, and law enforcement agencies such as the FBI and IRS to immediately investigate these "shortages," pending Congressional hearings. Of the utmost importance is the seizure and preservation of all letters, memos, notes, emails, tweets, phone recordings, phone logs, trip itineraries, etc. for Congressional and grand jury review.

While on the surface this may appear to be a state problem, which should be dealt with by the state of California, the reality is the likely conspirators are supranational corporations, for the most part beyond the reach of the state agencies, and/or entities/operations located outside the state, such as the pipelines. Thus it is essential the full investigative and legal resources of the Federal government be used. It is suggested this investigation should assume organized and ongoing criminal activity from the start, thus justifying the application of the RICO statutes and methodology, e.g. wire taps, bank record/asset review, use of confidential informants, involuntary grand jury testimony, sealed indictments, etc.

While it is too late to prevent severe economic disruption in California and the adjacent states from this contrived gasoline shortage, to prevent any repetition of this extortion and gross abuse of market position, it is suggested that legislation be enacted establishing the contingent authority of the state and federal government to immediately seize operational control, on a highly expedited basis with judicial approval, of suppliers, refiners, manufacturers, transporters, etc. where shortfalls are occurring not directly attributable to supply shortages or an excess of "coincidences" have occurred. Another example of possible proactive/preventative legislation in this particular case would be a criminal statute with possible prison time and large [individual not corporate] fines for taking more than one major refinery in a market area off-line for "turnaround" at a time. Other than restricting the supply of distillate fuels in that market, there is no rationale for doing so. Indeed, in many cases the availability of specialty technicians and equipment, needed for a refinery "turnaround," means only one area refinery can be serviced at a time, no matter how many refineries may be shut down.

===== end of memo to congress =====

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

=============

As an expansion of my prior observations reposted below, it should be noted that by the time the price gouging starts, in all probability there is no more "free market" left for the economic SWAT team to rescue in this particular sector, and their objectives must be to prevent further damage/sabotage, secure the records, take sworn statements, and identify the accountable. It then becomes the task of law enforcement and the regulators/judiciary to take appropriate action to prevent any repetition/immitation, which at a minimum must include employment termination of those accountable, possible bans on their industry employment, and criminal prosecution. While the last may seem like overkill, as George Savile (1633-1667), 1st Marquess of Halifax tersly observed "Men are not hanged for stealing horses, but that horses may not be stolen."

Relevant section from my email to Congress: ============ While it is too late to prevent severe economic disruption in California and the adjacent states from this contrived gasoline shortage, to prevent any repetition of this extortion and gross abuse of market position, it is suggested that legislation be enacted establishing the contingent authority of the state and federal government to immediately seize operational control, on a highly expedited basis with judicial approval, of suppliers, refiners, manufacturers, transporters, etc. where shortfalls are occurring not directly attributable to supply shortages or an excess of ?coincidences? have occurred. ============

Here is a repost of most of my response in an earlier discussion of this point: =========== The important point is that if prices are going up while the supply of raw materials is going up, and/or there are excessive numbers of "coincidences" knocking out key production and transportation facilities reducing availability, the "free market" in that particular segment no longer appears to be operational.

It is also worthwhile to remember these are not your typical quicky-mart grocery store on every corner, but rather gigantic quasi public utilities with an actual or quasi monopoly/oligopoly market position in highly critical economic sectors.

The reason for the judicial review is to have a disinterested 3rd party look at the accumulated data to verify that the principle of supply and demand has been compromised, and/or one too many "coincidences" have occurred.

The reason I used the phrase "expedited operational control" was that ownership should remain with the private owners i.e. share holders, the same workers should report to work, etc. the difference being that production scheduling, shutdown for maintenance, etc. would temporarily be under outside control, the operations and safety programs could be closely reviewed/monitored by outside experts for contradictions, lapses, omissions, etc., and all documentation, logs and records secured for later review, including unexplained/unjustified supply delays, payments, charges or plant outages.

While it is possible after thorough review of the records and investigation/interviews it will be determined that ?s**t happens,? and everyone did everything right, this is most doubtful, and the accountable individuals and groups can and should be identified, terminated from employment, and if possibly criminal charges brought against them such as conspiracy, price fixing, wire fraud, tax evasion, and obstruction of justice. ==============

Reply to
F. George McDuffee

It's not.

Reply to
Richard

He is calling for proper regulation to protect consumers.

I don't see that as a government takeover. That little trick we call - nationalization. That's a whole 'nother thing, Christopher.

Reply to
Richard

Immediate operational control, while allowing the figureheads to remain employed. In what part of the world is that not considered take over?

Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus

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It's not.

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

How about 5.21 a gallon?

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Its below 345 now. Its going down here! lol

Reply to
vinny

I don't really understand this election

Reply to
anna.browns02

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