OT: CD versus DVD durability?

On May 13, 8:08=A0pm, Christopher Tidy
. Can someone give me an

I have copied music CD's so as to have copies in more than one place.
And mostly used CD's manufactured by Ritek  ( sold by Fry's as GQ).
My results have not been all that good.  No big deal to me as I just
make another copy from the original.

But do a search on Taiyo Yuden.  From what I have read at various
website they are one of the best blank manufacturers.

                                            Dan

On 5/13/2011 7:24 PM, dcaster@krl.org wrote:

I've burned hundreds of these TY DVDs, maybe 2 or 3 coasters.

<http://www.supermediastore.com/product/u/taiyo-yuden-16x-dvd-r-media-value-line-100pk

David

On 5/13/2011 7:24 PM, dcaster@krl.org wrote:

I've burned hundreds of these TY DVDs, maybe 2 or 3 coasters.

<http://www.supermediastore.com/product/u/taiyo-yuden-16x-dvd-r-media-value-line-100pk

David

On 5/13/2011 7:24 PM, dcaster@krl.org wrote:

I've burned hundreds of these TY DVDs, maybe 2 or 3 coasters.

<http://www.supermediastore.com/product/u/taiyo-yuden-16x-dvd-r-media-value-line-100pk

David

wrote:

'They' say Taiyo Yuden is the best:
http://www.cdrdvdrmedia.com/taiyo-yuden-blank-dvd-r-media.html

The ID code is "TY". I haven't found them locally to try.

I test one disc from each spindle I buy with Nero, and usually burn at
half the rated speed.

Maxell and Imation didn't test very good a few years ago. MBI (Moser
Baer India) worked better for me than reports suggested they would.

jsw

Christopher Tidy wrote:

I can't answer that with any authority other than I've been using DVDs for
backup for 5 or 6 years.  Then seem to be holding up ok.

Having said that, it's important to note the difference in construction
between CDs and DVDs.  THey may look the same, but they aren't.
Not by a country mile.

DVDs are two layers laminated together while CDs are a single piece of plastic,

here is a quicky...
http://e-articles.info/e/a/title/DVD-Construction-and-Technology /
(except the tracks don't "spiral")

Quick...
How many grooves are there on an old fashioned LP record?




--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~sv_temptress

On 5/13/2011 11:29 PM, "<<<__ Bøb __>>>" wrote:

On each side ...

Stormin Mormon wrote:

   Some records had each item on its own grove so it would only play one
song or item at a time.
--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

On 5/15/2011 6:01 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Then there were the binaural records, two interleafed mono tracks,
separate needles for each...called "two-needle binaural reproducers" by
Atlantic Records back in 1953.

--
<:3 )~

Close but no bananas as they say.

DVD's are single and can - read the CAN be dual.

I buy DVD's and DVD-DL or dual layer.

Commercial made movie dvd's are typically two and are mechanically attached.

Dual layer DL - disks are pre-made and use two colors for reading each
layer while seeing only 1 physical and two colors writing the data out.

I also have BL  Blue layer - and it seems to be a single layer at this time.

Martin

On 5/13/2011 10:22 PM, CaveLamb wrote:

I beg to differ, Martin.

DUAL layer refers to dual recording layers, not basic disc construction.
ALL DvDs are laminated construction...



Martin Eastburn wrote:

--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~sv_temptress

I burn DL dual layers in the living room.  I don't press them.
It is one color inside to outside - I want to say a blue and then red.
The other is the other color.  Not all dvd players can play them.
Not all dvd writers can read or write them.  They are expensive and
special. These are dual logical layers.

Production ones are dual often and are pressed that way.
Production is the dual physical layers.

Martin

On 5/13/2011 11:02 PM, CaveLamb wrote:

Here's a bunch of Dual Layer info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_layer_dvd

Erik

    

DISC CONSTRUCTION AND MANUFACTURING

DVD-R and DVD+R discs can be either single or double-sided. A single-sided (SS)
disc is composed of a recording side and a dummy side while a double-sided (DS)
disc consists of two recording sides. The recording side of a DVD-R and DVD+R
disc is a sandwich of a number of layers. First comes a polycarbonate plastic
substrate containing a shallow spiral groove extending from the inside to the
outside diameter of the disc. A DVD-R disc additionally includes pits and lands
on the areas between the coils of the groove (land pre-pits). Added to this
substrate is an organic dye recording layer (azo, cyanine, dipyrromethene or
others) followed by a metal reflective layer (silver, silver alloy, gold). The
dummy side of a single-sided disc consists of an additional flat polycarbonate
plastic substrate (sometimes with an additional metal layer to obscure the
bonding layer from view for aesthetic purposes). An adhesive then bonds two
recording sides (for a double-sided) or a recording and dummy side (for a
single-sided) together into the final disc. Some single-sided discs are also
topped on the dummy side with decorations or additional layers that provide
surfaces suitable for labeling by inkjet, thermal transfer or re-transfer
printers.

How are DVD-R and DVD+R discs made?
The first step in manufacturing a DVD-R or DVD+R disc is to fabricate the
polycarbonate plastic substrates (incorporating the spiral groove and land
pre-pits) using an injection molding process. The dye is then applied using spin
coating and the metal layers by means of DC sputtering. After both sides of the
disc are completed they are bonded together using a hot melt, UV cationic or
free radical process. Additional decoration or printable layers are typically
applied using screen printing methods. A DVD-R (General) disc undergoes a
further manufacturing step in which a specialized computer DVD recorder is used
to “prewrite” information in the Control Data Zone of its Lead-in Area to
inhibit direct copying of prerecorded DVD-Video discs encrypted with the Content
Scrambling System (CSS). Apart from this, and some minor differences in the
configuration of the molding stamper used to create the substrates, the process
for manufacturing DVD-R and DVD+R discs is virtually identical.

What is the construction of DVD-RW, DVD+RW and DVD-RAM discs?
To allow information to not only be written but also re-written many times over,
DVD-RW, DVD+RW and DVD-RAM (rewritable) disc construction is more complex than
that of DVD-R and DVD+R (recordable). Just like a recordable disc, a rewritable
disc can be either single or double-sided. The recording side of a rewritable
disc also uses multiple layers beginning with a polycarbonate plastic substrate
containing a shallow spiral groove extending from the inside to the outside
diameter of the disc. A DVD-RW disc additionally includes pits and lands on the
areas between the coils of the groove (land pre-pits) and a DVD-RAM disc also
inside the groove itself (land and groove). Next comes a dielectric layer (zinc
sulfide and silicon dioxide), followed by a phase-change alloy recording layer
(either indium, silver, tellurium and antimony or germanium, tellurium and
antimony), another dielectric layer and a metal reflective layer (silver, silver
alloy, aluminum). Additional layers may also be incorporated above or below the
dielectric layers (germanium nitride, silicon carbide, silicon dioxide, silicon
nitride, zinc sulfide, antimony telluride and others). The dummy side consists
of a flat polycarbonate plastic substrate sometimes with an additional metal
layer. An adhesive then bonds the sides together into a single disc. The
exterior of the recording side may also be “hard coated” with a transparent
material (indium tin oxide, silicon-based lacquer and others) designed to repel
dust and resist fingerprints and scratches. Similar to a barcode in appearance,
a DVD-RAM or DVD-RW disc can also contain near its inner diameter an optional
Burst Cutting Area (BCA) or Narrow Burst Cutting Area (NBCA) to supply
information required to implement Content Protection for Recordable Media (CPRM).

How are DVD-RW, DVD+RW and DVD-RAM discs made?
As with DVD-R and DVD+R, producing DVD-RW, DVD+RW or DVD-RAM discs involves
using multiple manufacturing stages. The first step is to fabricate the
substrates (incorporating the spiral groove, land pre-pits and embossed areas)
by injection molding. The dielectric layers, phase-change recording, reflective
and any additional layers are applied to the substrate using DC, RF and reactive
sputtering. After both sides of the disc are completed they are bonded together
using a hot melt, UV cationic or free radical process. Since the sputtering
process lays down the phase-change alloy in its amorphous condition a special
device using powerful lasers (initializer) returns the recording layer back to
its crystalline state. Subsequent recording then results in less reflective
(dark) areas being written against a more reflective (bright) background. The
Burst Cutting Area (BCA) or Narrow Burst Cutting Area (NBCA) is marked into the
disc using the initializer or a dedicated device outfitted with a YAG (yttrium
aluminum garnet) laser. Hard coating can be applied to the substrates at
different stages in disc manufacturing using a variety of processes such as spin
coating, vacuum deposition and screen printing. A DVD-RAM disc can optionally
undergo a further manufacturing step in which it is physically formatted by a
conventional computer recorder (to detect and map any defective sectors). Apart
from some minor differences in the configuration of the molding stamper used to
create the substrates the process for manufacturing DVD-RW and DVD+RW discs is
virtually identical while DVD-RAM fabrication is more involved.

How does writable DVD and CD disc manufacturing differ?
Apart from the thinner substrates and tighter manufacturing tolerances, the most
significant difference between writable DVD and CD manufacturing is the need to
perfectly bond two DVD halves together to create a disc that is the same
thickness as a CD (1.2 mm). It is imperative that the two disc halves have the
same long-term mechanical behavior to ensure that the resulting disc maintains
its thermo-mechanical stability. This is particularly important for high-speed
discs where flatness and uniformity are paramount. Writable DVD disc
manufacturing equipment and production steps (with the addition of the bonding
stage) closely resemble those used to fabricate their CD counterparts. In fact,
many media manufacturers have simply modified their existing CD-R and CD-RW
equipment to produce writable DVD discs although it is generally expected to
become less feasible to do so (for productivity and product quality demands) as
the technology and business evolves.


http://www.osta.org/technology/dvdqa/dvdqa13.htm

Stormin Mormon wrote:

   Uphill, downhill or both?

--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

One thing to keep in mind about CD's and CDR's is that the actual data
layer, either dye or pressed) is under the label... often only protected
by a little paint and/or a coat of lacquer. A small scratch or ding to
the label side can spell disaster.

With DVD's (all varieties that I'm aware of anyway) the data layer/s are
sandwiched between two layers of Polycarbonate.

As far as writing DVD's goes, the dye layer/s are, and other than size,
work about the same CD's. Store them in a cool dark place.

In my personal experience, software that allows multiple burn sessions
are often unreliable disappointments, as are 'RW' re-writable type discs.

Back in the 'old days' when all this disc burning jazz started, it was
black magic to find blanks that would work with any particular burner...
seemingly everything was critical. Burner Mfg and specs, blank dye layer
chemistry, rated and actual burn speed/s and of course, outer planet
alignment. Lots of coasters were produced.

Then, and for all I know now, there were only a hand full of companies
actually producing blank CD's and DVD's, even though they sold under
many brand names. Many considered those actually made by Taiyo Yuden to
be by far the best. I've never seen a blank that actually sports TY's
name or logo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiyo_Yuden

But as time goes on, it seems like pretty much all blanks work well now.

I used to have a ton of links related to burning... I went through burn
bookmark folder, and included the 7 links that still work... not that
many, but enough to keep you busy for a while. Note most of these are
long in the tooth. See below.

To dispose of discs containing sensitive data, chop them up with sheet
metal shears. Be careful if you decide to break them... they can really
cut you. In that case, put them in a thickish section of newspaper or a
magazine, break them, then just toss the whole mess.

OT: I used to back up my computer to CDR's, then later DVD+R's, but
since USB flash drives matured, I've used them. I have two... one that
fits nicely in my cell phone case, and another I keep over at a well
trusted neighbors house... I update them both every month to 6 weeks.
(Yea, I know about portable hard drives, but I'm stuck in my ways, and
they work well for me.)

http://www.macdisk.com/isoen.php3

http://www.mscience.com/survey.html

http://www.cdmediaworld.com/hardware/cdrom/cd_utils_2.shtml

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~erick205/Papers/paper.html

http://users.forthnet.gr/ath/axatis/FAQs/CDR /

http://www.cdrfaq.org /

http://www.clir.org/pubs/reports/pub121/contents.html

Erik

Erik wrote:


A couple of things.

I'd fully agree with what Eric said about R/W and would add "multi session"
disks too.  They have never really been reliable for me.

Looking in my back-up book (several 256 disk pocket folders) my backup
stack goes back to 1998.  All of these are still readable.

I had a problem 5 or 6 years back with a DRIVE that didn't make good disks.
(and didn't admit it!)

But once a disc is readable, baring scratches, heat, flex, and "friends"
they seem to keep going like the Energizer Bunny.

I think the books are probably not the best storage mechanism for really
long term archival.  Probably best for that would be individual CD cases.
But the books are just too handy to dump and that many CD cases would be
expensive and take a lot more storage space.

YMMV,  as they say...
--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~sv_temptress

@news.dslextreme.com:


I would NEVER use USB flash for backup.  I've seen way too many USB
drives suddenly go bad.  In my experience, they are only slightly better
than floppies.  They are probably better now than they once were, but I
only use them to move data around.  If data is worth backing up, it's
worth backing up onto something reliable.  

On the original topic, for CD's I always used Mitsui gold disks.  They
are now sold under the name "MAM-A".  They were touted as the best for
many years, and I've never had a problem.  They also make DVD's, and are
considered by conservationists & archivists as the most stable disks
around.

http://www.conservationresources.com/Main/section_6/section6_12.htm

Doug White