What Mill

If you appreciate solid equipment, have the space to accommodate it and the equipment to move it, and a bit of time to spend on maintenance, buy a good quality, used American or European machine such as a Bridgeport or Cincinnati. You get a lot of machine for your money if you track down a good example.

If you only want to do light work, don't have much space or equipment, and don't like spending time maintaining or rebuilding machines, buy a small Chinese or Taiwanese mill (new or used).

Which you prefer is up to you.

There's a lot of information about manufacturers on this site:

Best wishes,

Chris

On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 23:53:11 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Nicholas Leone" quickly quoth:

The few new mills for that price are this model at HF

HF's newest midi model, I believe it's a Sieg X3. $999 and I believe, the same model in Lathetronics' version

If I had an extra grand right now, I'd have one (HF?) in my shop, too.

If you have the room, Leigh at MarMachine might have something for you in a nice 2-ton model. (Not for most tabletops. ;) He'll probably respond to this thread, too.

================ I notice from your ISP that you are located in GB.

Things may be different in GB/EEC but be reminded that in the US, PRC machine tools tend to be a "kit" that will require, at a minimum, disassembly and cleaning, adjustment, and possibly minor "corrections" such as shims and/or filing of flash/rough edges

*BEFORE* these will be satisfactory.

Indeed, because of the tendency of the PRC factories to not adequately clean their castings after machining, it is entirely possible to damage the machines if you even just test operate before stripping because of the residual swarf and foundry sand/scale. Even if you buy a new PRC mill, you would be well advised to at least strip, completely clean with kerosene / paraffin, and relube with known quality oils/greases.

Taiwanese machine tools tend to be much better [and more expensive] in this regard, and seem generally ready to go out of the box. From the little experience I have had with [south] Korean made tools, these appear to be equal to European/American in quality and assembly/adjustment out of the box. Any of the Asian tools you get will have been shipped halfway around the world and subject to unknown amounts of impact.

It also appears that there is some sort of grading process, or possibly the production of the same design machine tool at different factories with different quality standards. Some American distributors such as Grizzly get the "pick of the litter" and other distribution channels get the rest, so where you buy may be more important than what you buy.

A word of warning -- many "Home Shop Machinists" are like car owners. The best machine tool is the one they own, even if they have never operated another one and have no basis for comparison.

Unka George (George McDuffee)

I sincerely believe . . . banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale. Thomas Jefferson (1743?1826), U.S. president. Letter, 28 May 1816, to political philosopher and Senator John Taylor

Ditto here -- with the caveat that what I "would like" is not always the same as what I can do. I do not have space for a full size mill, period. If I can find a used "industrial" mini mill, great, but I have not yet seen many such mills available, most are full sized machines. So, if I ever decide to get a mill, I may have to get some China made mill simply due to space constraints.

i

Have a look at the Taig mill. It's intended for tabletop use and is very solidly built. I've got one of their lathes (called Peatol here in the UK).

Leon

Evidently these are worse than I thought. I don't own a mill, but almost all my equipment is used industrial stuff. If I was in the market for a mill, I would seek a used Bridgeport in preference to a new machine from the fast east. Thanks for adding the warning.

Best wishes,

Chris

And yes - I forgot to add - most of the new Chinese or Taiwanese mills I see for sale in England are ready assembled, not kits.

Best wishes,

Chris

I used to have a HF mill-drill on a factory stand. I replaced it with a Bridgeport. Interestingly, the BP doesn't take up much more space! The trick, of course, is to set the full-sized mill at an angle to the wall.

Jerry

The ones on this side of the pond come essentially assembled, too. It's just a convenient way of packing the kit. You have to take it apart, clean it up and properly lubricate it and then put the whole thing back together again. It's easier and cheaper than serious rebuilding after the left-over casting sand has found its way into ways, bearings, gears and other neat places...

Jerry

======================= So are the ones sold in the US. They are still a "kit" but you have to disassemble them first.

Unka George (George McDuffee)

I sincerely believe . . . banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale. Thomas Jefferson (1743?1826), U.S. president. Letter, 28 May 1816, to political philosopher and Senator John Taylor

Good grief, aren't you the one that had the Clausing 8520? I seem to recall several on here telling you to hold on to it. That would have been a good choice.

And there are plenty of small horizontals like Hardinge or Clausing

8540 around. Someday, I hope to get my Hardinge up and running. Rockwell made another good small vertical, with an R-8 spindle, I believe. When you decide you want one, they're out there.

Table length and travel determine the horizontal room required. Overhead is another story, which is why I don't have a Bridgeport J-head. Not enough headroom in the basement.

Pete Keillor

That was a 8530, and unfortunately I do not have space for it. I do not regret having sold it. I mean, I wish I had space for it, but given that I do not, selling it was a good idea.

i

Okay. I misunderstood you there :-D.

With any machine, it's always better if you can try before you buy!

Chris

================================= While the PRC and lately Indian made machine tools leave much to be desired by 21st century standards, we would all do well to take a look back and see what equivalent machine tools the west was producing at about the same stage of industrial development for the HSM markets. For example see:

Asia in general did not receive the "cream of the crop" western machine tools as imports (indeed "rejects" or "seconds" were frequently exported by the west) so they very well may have formed a different view about acceptable design and quality standards.

An additional problem in the PRC is a carefully cultivated long-standing contempt for decadent bourgeoisie ostentation and decoration, with an emphasis on good honest socialist ruggedness, utility and reliability. The problem is that it can be difficult to impossible, unless you are a machinist, to tell the difference between decorative "frou-frou juice" flaking or frosting and important operations with the same appearance such as hand scraped gibs and ways.

A cross-cultural factor may also be at work with the small PRC machine tools. Apparently with the evolution of the Chinese consumer society, there is a drive to acquire "things," generally for display, so the function is not of particular importance. This is an echo of the tendency in the west for every home (with any pretensions) to have a spinet piano in the setting room, even if no one could play. I have read several places that one of the icons in a Chinese home is (or at least was) a sewing machine, and that several Chinese factories are turning out magnificently finished sewing machines, complete with gold pin stripes and polished wood cabinets, fully equal in appearance to the best of the old Singers and Whites. The only problem is that they are very marginal in operation, when these can sew at all. It may well be that the Chinese designers/manufacturers would be amazed that anyone is actually attempting to accurately machine metal on one of their small lathes, mills or other machine tools.

The PRC's machine tool industry and supporting industries such as foundries, are rapidly improving, and with no historical baggage, they have the potential to leap-frog existing designs by reducing costs by incorporating advances in materials such as turcite/moglice gibs/ways, aggregate filled beds to minimize shipping and completely new classes of home shop machine tools.

Many of the best engineering students currently at the US universities are PRC, Taiwanese, and Indian. Frequently they are in the majority in the manufacturing engineering classes. They are particularly aggressive in searching out information on new and high volume techniques with the potential to both cut costs and improve quality. As manufacturing techniques, such as rotoblasting castings in the bulk to remove sand and scale is introduced, the quality of the Asian produced tools will continue to improve and the prices will continue to drop. The single biggest factor appears to be the lack of attention to customer feedback and suggestions by the factories. To be sure some of the importers appear to collect this information, but it is unclear if it every gets translated into Chinese.

The quality of new generation of electronics, including the packaging, such as printers, made in the PRC should be sounding the alarm bells for the western machine tool makers.

Unka George (George McDuffee)

I sincerely believe . . . banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale. Thomas Jefferson (1743?1826), U.S. president. Letter, 28 May 1816, to political philosopher and Senator John Taylor

According to Nicholas Leone :

Hmm ... solid, but not too much travel? Have you looked at the Nichols horizontal mills? In particular, get one with the vertical accessory head and you have the best of both types. You will not find a new one, but used ones show up frequently on eBay and for quite reasonable prices, because people are scared off by the thought of a horizontal mill.

One of the interesting features of the Nichols is that the horizontal spindle is mounted to the base casting by a set of vertical dovetails, and a lever and sector gear meshing a rack gear will move it up and down at need -- including for plunge milling and drilling with the vertical head.

It weighs something like 1100 pounds, but that includes a base which goes down to the floor -- and often provisions for recirculating coolant.

You want the toolroom version, which has an option to switch between the lever X-feed (for production work) and a leadscrew (for precision X-axis work).

Tooling is all 40 Taper NTMB end mill holders, horizontal arbors, and DA collet endmill holders.

It needs three phase power -- and you cannot swap in a common single-phase motor, because it is a rather specialized gearhead motor, but it is only between 1 and 2 HP (depending on vintage), and can easily be run from a VFD (which is what I use) or a home-built rotary converter.

You probably want to avoid the ones with air over hydraulic powered motion, as that will be more difficult to change to leadscrew and lever.

Enjoy, DoN.

This can be an interesting cultural difference. For example, A chinese chef is taught to make a dish the proper way...not taught to make a dish "his" way or experiment on making it better. With regards to hard products, it seems that there is a culture of "if you have problems, it must be something you are doing...we make the machine just like we always have and 85% of people don't have any problems".

Workers, also, are very much trained to do it the "right" way and NO other...when working with a friend's plant in Guangzhao, we had a hell of a time getting them to start using air drills instead of electric (which failed about 1 per day) because the guys had been taught the "right" way. That simple change to them was a sign that someone was telling them they were doing it WRONG (vs a change to be better, more productive, easier, more reliable)

The same holds true for immigrant labor in many ways. Our plant is primarily Chinese workers. I have a devil of a time getting them to make even the smallest change in production..."But this is the RIGHT way because this is how I've done it for years". Suggesting change means what is current is WRONG (add about 5 underlines) rather than improvement being a positive thing.

Even if the information about problems was translated to Chinese, I think the bigger hurdle is to get over the attitude that it can't be a production/design problem. With China, and I assume other emerging countries, you mant to make sure it's the way you will always want it from the beginning...fix the bugs/designs BEFORE you train people how to make stuff or set up the production line.

Koz (who notes that this is only observation/opinion, not fact)

name of funding,

They come assembled in the US too, but should be disassembled, cleaned and adjusted/modified before use. Hence the term "kits".

============== Ah So -- the one right way.......

Interesting post as this is exactly what ISO9000 attemps to implement in the west.

More or less forces the self-appointed thinking classes to actually think as the workers won't do it for them....

Unka George (George McDuffee)

I sincerely believe . . . banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale. Thomas Jefferson (1743?1826), U.S. president. Letter, 28 May 1816, to political philosopher and Senator John Taylor

I have a Millrite for sale, which you can read about from a couple of recent threads:

?lnk=st&q=&rnum=3&hl=en#00f8dd07a54f6e2d It is a long URL, you may need to cut and paste it in pieces, or else search Google Groups advanced for Millrite in 2006 in rec.crafts.metalworking.

Steve