Which Lathe for Beginner?

Think about the used market. You'll find better iron for the buck and there is a HUGE glut of machines since actually producing things in this country is so politically incorrect.

Tom's observation about the politics of being a producer in this crazy world is spot-on. However, I still have much to learn about machine tools for the automotive and gunsmithing hobbyist. Hows about some advice on brands and types of machines? Just a basic lathe and milling machine to start with. Size? I'm not sure. I'd like something bigger than a "mini-lathe", but, not something too big to get down the basement stairs. Gear drive or belt? Got me. What's the real difference? Maybe I need to be pointed to some kind of FAQ for machining newbies. I'm open to any help.

Fred

F. Hayek scribed in :

from what I've read here, the Jet lathes tend to be better than other brands (I don't live on your continent, and have a Myford lathe, so cannot really knww these answers. ymmv etc etc)

9x20? for automotive you'll probably be happier with a 12x or 14x (that's 12 or 14 inch diameter workpiece capacity), because at some point you'll want to face a brake drum or clutch plate (-:

for gunsmithing.... mostly your size requirment there is being able to put the barrel through the headstock. now you're looking at the

14x to 16x range (BIG lathes) because no-one makes a small lathe with a big spindle hole. why? we don't know....but they sure would be useful

the 9x20 is easy enough to carry down afaik.

gear is (more) powerful and gives more speed options. belt is quiet and can give the same options. my Myford has 6 belt ratios and I seldom move it out of the highest speed (640rpm). but nice to have

30 rpm when you need it!

swarf, steam and wind

-- David Forsyth -:- the email address is real /"\

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What you want in a lathe is a tool large enough to do the kind of work you think you may want to do in the future (swing diameter of 3 times the work diameter is the usual ratio stated), is popular enough to have accessories at cheap prices and is known to be a sturdy workhorse that is easy to keep going.

This means if you think you will stay away from turning automotive crankshafts, that a 9 inch lathe (which means work diameter up to 3 inches) is probably appropriate. I think used is the smartest way to go. One lathe that fits all the criteria here is the South Bend. I am a watchmaker so I am biased toward the Swiss toolroom lathes. I happen to own a Habegger. While I love that machine, it was more trouble and money to tool up than a South Bend. And from what I have seen, I could probably do most of the same work on the South Bend. And remember, there are still times when you use the lathe for "big" things. I have made 6 inch jigs on my 8 inch lathe. It is just if you were doing this on a regular basis that a larger lathe would be much "friendlier" in the setup and work.

For mill, I own a used Select Vertical mill. This is the same pattern used in the Enco and Grizzly mills that sell for about $2000. The main reason for using a mill of this pattern is once again, cost of accessories. Standard machinist accessories (R-8 and such) are much easier and cheaper to come by. I put a Sony Millman package on it I purchased new on eBay for $800 and I see little difference between it and a Swiss mill when all is said and done. But for the work I do, this mill is way overkill to begin with.

I can't speak of the range of new stuff and what I said above should be interpreted as my own biased opinion. But I hope this helps.

"dddd" wrote in news:st2vb.2$ snipped-for-privacy@news.abs.net:

From a former machine shop instructor, my advice is buy a couple of used machines. I have no clue what your current capabilities are for running these machines, but you want something pretty tough....hehe... You might find a used Bridgeport mill for fairly cheap. These are tough mills, and will take quite a bit of abuse. I like SouthBend for a lathe for about the same reason. Plus...these are popular enough that parts can be found for them.

Glenn

Email me the shipping charge for the cable. And your snail mail address.

Or, would you rather get something machined for free???????? I got a bigger lathe.

Karl

Oh, yeah! I was going to give you a few days to get your back out of traction from digging that ditch across the parking lot and then forgot about it. :-)

I considered an inexpensive import but bought an older used domestic machine (Delta-Rockwell 11") instead because 1) it kinda fell into my lap and 2) it's the same lathe I envied in my High School shop ;-) I'm sure glad I did.

First off its a little bigger (11X24) but most importantly it has more useful features. A biggy in my opinion is the lack of power cross-feed on the cheaper import lathes - ugh. My 11" will handle brake rotors and drums for all of the vehicles I own and the spindle hole is 1-3/8" and I really wish it were larger. Came with a 6" chuck which immediately proved a little small for me - got a good used Cushman 9" L-00 for $50. The Rockwell was a pretty good lathe in it's day and 40 years later it's still rugged as can be, spindle runout barely wobbles the needle on an .001 indicator, has a variable speed belt drive with backgear, and 48 different feed speeds/thread pitches without any gear changes. The ways may not be PERFECT but they are more than satsifactory for my needs - this was a toolroom quality lathe in it's time. Im still trying to find metric change gears for it. Spindle is big enough to accept 5C collets.

I did buy an Enco import bench mill/drill and rather regret that for much the same reasons: No power downfeed, no knee, standard Bridgeport-style powerfeeds won't fit the table, and last but most certainly not least - HORRIBLE MANUAL. My decision to buy this machine was based almost solely on a promotional offer of free shipping/discounted price. I now wish I'd shopped around for a decent used Bridgeport within hauling distance and may well do that yet.

I just bought a used Kysor-Johnson Model J horizontal bandsaw after much shopping around. I considered the Jets, HF, Grizzly, Enco, Wilton, etc. but with patience found this saw on Ebay 2 hours from my home for $300. Put a fresh Starret blade on it and powered it up last night and I am wow-ed! No way any of the $700+ imports could hold a candle to this (30+ yr old?) saw. It will still be sawing when they are rusting piles of junk somewhere.

Which brings me to my final thought - 3 phase machines. If you start shopping for used machines you'll have more selection and better value for your dollar if you'll consider 3 phase machines. My used machines are all 3 phase. The quote from your power company for 3 phase service will knock your socks off but it's not really an issue. My shop has

60A/240V single phase service. I bought an inexpensive ($65) static phase converter, a real nice used 3HP 3 phase motor ($10) and a couple of inexpensive ($10) 30Mfd run capacitors and coppled up a nice rotary phase converter from the bits. A commercial rotary converter would have cost about $500-700. Building the converter was quite interesting and really easy. There's all kinds of useful ariticles on the Internet describing how-to in great detail and I learned an awfull lot about motors and electricity in the process. My converter will run any ONE of my three phase machines but ONLY ONE AT A TIME. I don't have any employees so that's a non-issue. Do not expect to be able to run any significant equipment with a static converter alone. The equipment performance will be significantly degraded.

Which brings me to my (really) last thought which is that the cost of the machine (lathe in your case) is only the first drop in a rather large bucket. The tooling for the lathe (Chucks, collets, toolholders, bits, inserts, etc) can quickly dwarf the buy-in cost of the machine. This makes used machines with additional tooling even more attractive. Go to

and browse their machine tool accessories to see what I mean ;-) They are probably top dollar but it's representative.

I'm buying used, having a ton of fun, and spending a ton of money.... hope my wife doesn't find out!

HTH,

Dan Now an Ebay junkie

Thanks for the advice. I'm eager to start making stuff like bushings and spacers for my 4x4 off road vehicle and motorcycle projects. I also hope to be able to make a firearm, or at least the regulated bits :-), from scratch someday.

I'm mostly a mechanic with some welding skills. I also have woodworking skills, but, I've never used a metalworking lathe, milling machine or other precision metal shop tools. I have a set of Mitutoyo micrometers, Indise telescoping gages, a dial indicator gage and a nice Browne and Sharp 0 - 12" caliper.

I am planning to use the American Gunsmithing Institute's lathe and milling video courses to get started.

You should probably take some local voc-tech classes and get a feel for what the machines are like, and talk in person with those who have purchased machinery.

Another important question that has yet to be raised is, how much do you want to spend?

Keep in mind that you will probably purchase tooling for whatever you do buy, that will cost approximately the same amount as the machine itself costs. But that won't go below some irreducible minimum for things like measuring tools.

Jim

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jim rozen wrote in news:bpjffd011q0 @drn.newsguy.com:

Hayek

Check out Steve's site for some used equipment. Don't think he deals with manual stuff, but I noticed he had a couple of CNC Bridgeports for $3000 each.

I like the idea of finding something like a South Bend 9" lathe to get started. And go from there. I'm a Toyota 4x4 enthusiast though, so I might like to be able to cut some metric threads.

I've never operated any such machine tool and I'm not too keen on taking regular classes. I'm hoping I can learn from the American Gunsmithing Institute's 30 hour video course.

They've got lots of cool stuff for gunsmiths too.

That may be difficult, depending on the particular thread pitch, without modifying the lathe (i.e. replacing one or two of the gears). The old South Bend lathes (and most American made lathes of that vintage) were designed to work in the inch system, not metric. Some metric threads have inch equivalents, or are very close, and can be made on old American lathes unmodified, but not all of the metric threads can be.

To get yourself oriented with machine tool basics, you might want to skim through the US Army's "Fundamentals of Machine Tools" training manual:

http://155.217.58.58/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/tc/9-524/toc.htm I found this to be very helpful when I first decided that I wanted a lathe, etc.

Another book which is always recommended by people here is South Bend's "How to Run a Lathe," which was produced long ago but is still in print from a few sources:

This a classic primer on lathe anatomy, basic operation, and etc. I've never read it myself, but so many people here recommend it that I feel I can too.

South Bend sells/had a conversion gear for the 9" SB and other lathes -- called a "metric transpose gear". It replaces one of the big gears in the drive train. It is a two part gear with 114 on one wheel and 110 on the other, giving a 110/114 ratio -- or something like that. Anyhow, you put this gear in the gear train and voila, the lathe is now metric. Many other older lathe manufacturers had/have similar change gears. However, be prepared for sticker shock. Typically, old lathe gears go for about $1/tooth-- putting this into the $225 + cost category. Even so, the gear is so rare that that I've heard it go for more than the price of the lathe. The Lindsay publications reprint of the 1934 SB catalog lists this gear for sale at $30 for a 9" up to $55 for an 18" lathe. At the time, the basic 9" SB was priced at around $150 -- so the gear's price was fierce even then. If you are going to be really heavy into metric, you might consider a lathe that does both -- it might have to be a new one. As another alternative, there are always taps and dies -- lot cheaper than a new lathe.

I think the transpose gear was a 127 tooth item. IIRC Scott Logan sells a pair of gears that gets to within a few percent of that ideal gear, and he sells them for a lot less than what the 127 sells for.

I would point out to the original poster that for smaller threads, one can still use taps and dies.

Jim

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Beizer

Yeh -- that was one of the teeth count. I remembers. When I gave away my

9" SB to my son, I gave him the precious transpose gear. Now on those rare occassions (once in the last four years) that my metric taps and/or dies (either in the shop or to be bought) doesn't do the trick, I have him cut the thread on "his" lathe. Re Scott: I'm sure if he sells them it will do the job to within government work tolerances.

Boris

I'm almost to the point where I am thinking of letting go my 9" South Bend. I'm doing an increasing amount on the big lathe. If someone wants a really super-clean 9" South Bend Model A, longest bed made, please contact me by email. It's in the Seattle area. It will come with basic tooling and the buyer will get first crack at every bit of advanced tooling I own (basically everything except metric conversion kit) at reasonable pricing. I'm not going to bundle it all with the lathe because no one would pay what it is worth. If I sell the lathe and the buyer doesn't want some or all of the tooling then it will all become available - steady/follow, taper, milling attachment, faceplates, special chucks, MLA cross-slide table, Aloris AXA tooling, the works.

This is an exceptional lathe. It was made in 1949 and is still in excellent condition.

I'm getting sick of people whining they can't find a decent lathe.

I'm willing to consider shipping.

Grant Erwin to contact me see

- doing a "reply-to" to this message will NOT WORK even if you remove the NOSPAM

Hmm. I wonder.

I've got a dividing head, I wonder if it's would be a going proposition to simply start manufacturing 127 tooth gears to fit SB machines?

Jim

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