Why aluminum prices are up; copper to follow

Thanks for the links, George. I'll read them this evening.

Aluminum prices are actually down.

I knew someone would bring that up. Look at the longer term. That's what they're talking about.

There's a glut of aluminum right now. That's why Golden Sacks is trying to manipulate the market by keeping as much as they can out of circulation. They have futures positions to protect, and the rest of us are paying for it.

As I follow the links that have shown up here, and the stories that are showing up in the aggregators, it's becoming clear that this whole thing is all about rigging the market.

They're down on the one year, the five year and also on the 24 year charts; pray tell how long of a term should we be looking at here?

This "whole thing" is called "capitalism", and it's been "rigged" since it's very inception..

I do have to agree however, if not for Goldman Sachs, aluminum prices would probably be even lower than they are today.

The 20-year charts.

I'd have to know what the beer people were expecting prices to be. In any case, I'm going to have to keep following the stories. It's not a subject I report about, but it will be useful background.

Ah, no, I don't agree with that. Commodities have often been vulnerable to price manipulation, and that's what the stories are saying about aluminum now.

Capitalism, when it's working right, is about free competition, not rigged prices.

Well, I still don't know enough about it. I'll look into it more when I can. My free evening just disappeared as I have to get ready for a conference call in the morning.

Att: Ed

The mills of the gods continue to grind [slowly]. My question "is there now *ANY* market, including labor that is not fixed or rigged at the macro level (and at the taxpayers' risk?"

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FYI

Ooh, yeah, it's ugly. When this first came up, I recall that some folks questioned whether the banks were doing anything underhanded. By now they're probably getting the idea. Sitting on commodities, making consumers line up to get what they own and collecting rent on them while doing it is underhanded enough. But the banks are withholding metals from the market while trading in those metals on their own accounts. That ought to be worth a prison term.

But they've really bought themselves trouble by taking on America's canned-beer drinkers. That's REAL trouble, even if those drinkers will be staggering and belching their way with pitchforks and torches.

Which reminds me, I finally got a chance to do some metal-bending last evening! I popped the cap off of a bottle of Beck's.

. But the banks are withholding

So what laws are the banks violating? As far as I know commodity trading is legal. Owning aluminum had better be legal or I am in trouble by having some raw stock in my basement.

Since Aluminum prices have been going down, it looks like the banks are losing money. I am looking forward to copper prices to follow the Aluminum prices and go down.

Dan

They are ripping off their customers, who bought metal on exchanges and seek to get physical delivery, by holding on to the metal longer than necessary and charging storage fees. It is a ripoff. But its effect on aluminum prices is not big.

It affects futures pricing in a minor way, because a trader who is contemplating buying a futures contract, anticipates paying extra ripoff storage fees.

Other than that, there should not be much effect on the price of aluminum.

This is the crux of the problem. It may well be that after two decades of "deregulation" no laws were indeed broken, but then again, up until about 1865, holding people as chattels [slaves] broke no US laws either.

The fact that no laws seem to have been violated is not a justification for continued unethical and counterproductive [in the aggregate] activity but rather a highly persuasive argument for the immediate re-enactment (and draconian enforcement) of new and improved versions of Glass-Steagall to reconstruct the firewalls and bulkheads between the financial services sectors and the reanimation of the CFTC with reimposed position limits in the commodity markets [among many other things] and the re-regulation, if not prohibition, of "derivatives" aka gambling contracts.

The granting of Federal tax exemption on the interest paid on municipal bonds must also be closely regulated/monitored due to widespread and increasing abuse, although that particular horse has been long ago been stolen, it may not be too late to save the tractor, saddle, hay, oats, corn, etc. by locking the barn now.

IMNSHO -- The rogue banksters and financial dons/capos are now a far greater threat to not only the American Republic [as we know it] but the capitalist/free market economic system, than Marx, Lenin, Stalin or Mao ever was.

Section 9(a)(2) of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934.

Not if you're manipulating prices at the same time -- which they are.

Unless you control the distribution rate of something like 25% of the aluminum on the US market, you probably don't have anything to worry about.

Good luck. I'm sure that Golden Sacks has the futures prices hedged; probably shorted.

It doesn't have to be. Currency traders make or lose tens or hundreds of millions on the price-shift of 0.1% in a currency's value. Trading commodities can be similar, if you're leveraged 100:1 or more...which they are, because they don't have to own the commodity at all.

Golden Sacks et al. are trading contracts on their own account -- and they're manipulating prices by controlling the distribution of 25% of the aluminum in the U.S.

I don't think that's the case, George. It appears that the SEC has acquired some balls and is going to go after them on something like 15 USC § 78i.

I think letting states have lotteries is worse. It harms people that can little afford to be harmed.

Dan

Indeed it is. Operationally this is a tax on stupidity, but then so are derivatives where, like jack in the beanstalk, you trade the cow [real cash money] for a bag of magic beans...

When you are manipulating the market, you can make money when it goes either up or down because you know which way its going to move. You get to shear the sheep on the way up and again on the way down... Ain't short sales wonderful?

OBTW anybody checked the trading ratio of virtual/imaginary commodities to real/physical commodities?

FWIW, I didn't write what you quoted. And I agree with you.

Sort of like a guy signing a contract to deliver a boxcar full of wire brushed six months from now and he doesn't have any brushes in the agreed sizes at the time he signs the contract