Which Lathe (groan)

Alright, it's been asked 1000's of times before but I'm trying my best to get through the 'discovery' process of how to buy a lathe, without ending up buying a dog. I've ruled out old British machines as the last 5 I've took the man that knows to look at have been beyond end of life scrap metal.

I'm currently looking at :

formatting link
It fits my requirements perfectly and will only ever be used for R&D components in 6000 series ally & Nylon. Problem is it's out of stock & I need one NOW. I'd consider an alternative of the same size but it MUST have power cross feed, is there anything out there, preferably from the SIEG factory maybe without DRO ????

Has anyone been there before me & is more than happy with their purchase ?

My thanks in advance for any informative responses.

Reply to
Babba
Loading thread data ...

What about this one.

formatting link

-- Regards,

John Stevenson Nottingham, England.

Visit the new Model Engineering adverts page at:-

formatting link

Reply to
John Stevenson

Hi, not surprised it's out of stock if the quoted price is right. Here is what looks to be the same machine without the DRO and considerably more expensive:

formatting link
I have no idea what he machine is like or what Chesters service is like these days, sorry.

Keith

Reply to
jontom_1uk

If you look at second hand machines in the price range of the Axminster machine, you won't be looking at "beyond end of life scrap metal".

Mark Rand RTFM

Reply to
Mark Rand

On or around Mon, 14 May 2007 09:17:03 +0100, "Babba" enlightened us thusly:

Nooooooooo!

it depends how much you can fettle. There were a few issues with my Student, but most of them I've worked around, and some of the others I can fettle without spending silly money.

The BV30M seems out of stock, too. As is the compressor I fancied... Axminster must be selling plenty.

Reply to
Austin Shackles

On or around Mon, 14 May 2007 11:02:32 +0100, Mark Rand enlightened us thusly:

Good point.

like

formatting link
for exmaple.

or

formatting link
if you want a big one.

good-looking roundhead master:

formatting link

Reply to
Austin Shackles

Are you speaking of a Colechester Student? I've seen them for sale in the US. Are there specific issues to look out for?

Wes

Reply to
clutch

As someone who is fascinated by machining metal (although more milling than lathe) yet who is totally green on the subject, is there some sort of "cult" fascination with older Colchester lathes over their modern counterparts?

Is a dated Colchester really better than a spanking new Axminster or similar machine?

One of the reasons I ask is that I'm going to be purchasing a milling machine in the near future to work on prototypes of complex tools I'm developing that I can then pass on to the real professionals for enhancement - but the idea of landing a dated, rusty, pig ugly "lump of metal" doesn't really appeal!

Odie

Reply to
Odie Ferrous

I don't know about Colchester's, but I recently bought a BCE jig borer for use as a small-but-accurate mill, my first step into "old iron".

It's far more rigid and seems far more accurate than anything I could have bought new at that size, no matter (within reason) the price (which was less than eg an X2, and included a huge 10" rotary table), and I am quite delighted with it.

Certainly nothing Chinese I have seen will compare in terms of sheer mass and rigidity, and my lust for an X3 is now muted.

The spindle is a bit of metal the like of which I have never seen before, lathes.co.uk describe it as "glass-hard", which is an understatement!!

The bearings are lovely, and made to last forever with no play when adjusted right. The slides are even and accurate - but more important, they are a _lot_ bigger and heavier than any chinese equivalent, even at five times the price.

Nice touch, it has a screw to accurately verticalise the head, so no tramming is needed

although there are two or three screws which are problematic to undo ... and collets are not readily available ... but I plan first to convert it to metric anyway, which will cost £7.50 and a bit of work on the lathe for the leadscrews plus £4 iirc for the bronze for the nuts. I'll probably make a new spindle too (shame) to accept MT2 tooling.

Later I will maybe convert it to cnc, and add a fifth axis on the head. Do people do that? So the end of the tool can move sideways, rather than just up-and-down?

Old iron is a different world, and although I think I have been both diligent and lucky in my first purchase, I couldn't have gotten something Chinese which will do what this will do, and stand up to it forever, for anywhere near the price.

YMMV, and your purchase may need fettling before it can be used (though this one didn't - but I had already planned to fettle and gentle it anyway).

Reply to
Peter Fairbrother

You are confusing me. Do you mean BCA?

In which case join the club.

Mark Rand RTFM

Reply to
Mark Rand

And there's the problem; I now try to establish the country of manufacture of everything I purchase, from beds to dishwashers to tools. Anything made in China (within reason) gets a kick.

But I do recall a period where "Made in Japan" represented cheap plastic tat, whereas now, it is about the best on the planet.

Can't see China going down that route in a hurry.

Unfortunately, it seems more and more difficult to get quality these days, regardless of how much you're willing to pay.

Odie

Reply to
Odie Ferrous

Sorry to disagree with you Mr Odie but I have recently come back from a trip to the Canton trade show and what they have and are doing is rather scary.

One example was a company making generator sets, I enquired about a diesel, super silent

5.5 Kva and was shown the engine in parts on the stand. If someone had given me this engine and asked me to guess the country of origin I would have said Japan immediately. All die cast, no flash or imperfections, all internal components ground to mirror finishes, in fact nothing to fault it. All that was missing was Honda cast in it.

On looking in their leaflet on the range the first page showed the factory, large, single story and brand new. Next page showed the machine shop, 35 brand new CNC vertical machining centre's churning parts out, all with China Fadal on the side. No

10,000 coolies with a file and a casting between their toes.

Who in this country has invested in 35 new machining centre's just for one product line in one pop ??

On the Sieg stand I asked how old their bedway grinder was, their answer ? Which one ? Ask Myfords the same question and the answer will be "Can you wait while we sent a chap round to ask Bert as he retired 10 years ago and he's the only one who knows "

Ask Colchester's the same question and their answer will be "Can you wait while we ring China up and ask them, they make our beds"

I'm not defending the Chinese just pointing out that they are now in a position we were in back in Victorian times. As I say it's scary and the younger you are the scarier it is. Like many I have a private pension being self employed, for the last 10 years most of this pension money has been invested in China as it gives the best return on investment. So indirectly myself with many others have been funding our own redundancy, sad but true.

Investment money goes to money, if we had invested instead of listening to bean counters perhaps things could be better but who has invested in manufacturing here to attract investment ? Our local tool and cutter grinders wanted a new 6 axis ? T&C grinder, they rang the Swiss up for details and prices but told "sorry no point sending details as all the next two years production is going to China. So now not only can they make tools cheaper they are doing them better as they are doing them on machines we have never seen.

One thing to remember is that there are always levels of goods. Being tight asses we want the best machine for the least money so quality control comes into play. Lets face it that £300 lathe has 500 components, umpteen bearings, a chuck, an electric motor as part of it's make up. It has to be made halfway round the world, shipped here, import duty paid, VAT paid and shipped to the UK supplier who then has to throw his bowl of rice at it, all for £300 so is it any wonder that it needs a bit of a tidy up, fettling etc. Even if it was landed free how much would a carrier charge you to collect it from Felixstow and deliver it to you ?

Now approach the Chinese and say I want an industrial lathe for about £7K and look what you get compared to a Conny Sewer costing the same money.

Sorry but we lost it at the same time big money went into UK manufacturing and the company was no longer run by the owner.

.

-- Regards,

John Stevenson Nottingham, England.

Visit the new Model Engineering adverts page at:-

formatting link

Reply to
John Stevenson
< snip >

< snip >

Seldom was a truer word spoken!

I was at Herbert's for about 4 years just before their demise. The rot set in when the Works Manager - a Mr Sproul - who had served his time at Herbert's many years before was replaced by a 'bean counter' - a Mr Kell

- who came from the sales side of Massey Fergusson.

JG

Reply to
JG

On or around Mon, 14 May 2007 20:28:22 +0100, Odie Ferrous enlightened us thusly:

trouble is, no-one can afford the modern counterparts. I've an idea that you can still buy new colchesters, in fact, but the prices would make yer eyes water.

formatting link
but there aren't any prices. I suspect that if you have to ask you can't afford it!

The old ones are affordable and enormously better quality than the modern cheap machines; modern not-cheap ones are, well, not cheap!

If it's in decent condition, yes, IMHO.

Reply to
Austin Shackles

A brand new Colchester student is =A39k from buck & hickman. A Master is =A330k + . Given this I'd expect it to be a better bit of kit (potentially) than something new for =A31500 never mind a Clarke thing for =A3500. Assuming of course it's not clapped out of course.

I got a Colchester Bantam for about =A3500, and it seems fine to my very inexpert eye.

Hywel

Reply to
hyweldavies

On or around Mon, 14 May 2007 09:23:03 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@lycos.com enlightened us thusly:

depends on model. The old lathes, with round head castings, have a few built-in issues, but they're capable of solution. An example: the nut under the cross-slide is a single bronze (or similar material) item. If the thread is worn, you get backlash in the cross-slide feed. On the Mk2 (square-head) ones, this nut is in 2 halves, with a small wedge between them to allow them to be moved apart, taking up the wear.

It would be possible, and when I get hold of a spare nut one day I'll try this, to convert the Mk1 nut to this type of adjustment, making it adjustable in the same way.

there are other things, like you tend to find (as on mine) that the spindle brake is missing or non-functional. However, that's not an essential part.

The gearbox on the older roundhead machines is noisy. However, that has more to do with the type of gears, they were noisy when new.

Mine had a nasty-sounding knock in it when I got it, but this turned out to be the main belt pulley was loose on it's shaft. Tightening it solved it, and it's recurred once and been tightened again.

Ideally, you want to see the machine running, before buying it, and make sure that all the gears work, including the feed, screwcutting and so on gears. My student has a metric-and-imperial screwcutting gearbox and power feed via a shaft (not via the leadscrew) and power crossfeed.

you don't get that lot on new machines under about 10 grand, bearing in mind that it'll swing about 13" over the bed and 24" between centres, and for big things it's got a gap bed.

One other point, compared to modern machines, they tend to be slow. mine does 1200 rpm flat out, which is quite a bit lower than modern machines that size can do. Not a big issue; but modern tools will stand working harder/faster and you don't have that option if you don't have the speed in the machine.

Reply to
Austin Shackles

Babba,

The one that you're watching - any chance that you could wait for 6 - 8 weeks and get a similar, brand new one at 25% discount? I know you said it's urgent, but if all else fails. I can get you full details if you contact me directly. Hugh

formatting link

Reply to
Hugh

to the Canton

large, single

10,000 coolies

product line in

position we were in

most of this

sad but true.

rang the Swiss

asses we want

face it that

for £300 so

the company

All very interesting comment.

Of course, there are always going to be exceptions, but for the time being I believe Chinese-manufactured products (especially in the hard drive business, where my experience lies) are sub-standard, with failure rates significantly higher than those made in, say, Singapore.

One obvious reason that China is managing to get their manufacturing in gear so quickly is their total disregard for patents and intellectual property rights, and this leaves a sour taste in my mouth. They have comparatively few development costs.

Undoubtedly, they will eventually (in the near, rather than the distant, future) become the next Japan, although twenty times the size.

I also feel they will be the world's major super power within twenty years. We may as well start learning the lingo!

Odie

Reply to
Odie Ferrous

Except of course for those unscrupulous individuals wishing to palm off their knackered machinery in the hope that someone without a clue doesn't discover this untill 3mths later, long after the positive feedback has been left.

I wouldn't mind, caveat emptor & all that, but my semi-tame engineer has asked the right questions on 5 occasions before we drove the many miles to view, only to discover they are beyond end of life, uneconomical to make good and basically nothing more than spare parts & scrap metal.

Reply to
Babba

I haven't your experience with hard drives but do build a number of PCs mainly as a hobby, my two latest failures (within last 6 months) have been with Maxtor drives built in Singapore. Both failed within a few weeks (in aerospace we used to call it "infant mortality") and both interestingly will run if turned upside down. Rather than Chinese production which I agree varies totally with what you are prepared to pay for the item, I blame the fact that I am now paying about 20% of what I used to for a hard drive that is hundreds if not thousands of times larger. On the other hand I suppose, the Chinese are certainly partly to blame for that. I can't totally disagree with you though as despite this poor experience I still aim to buy drives built in Singapore, Thailand or the Philippines. Trouble is that I have a number of superb Fujitsu drives that have run faultlessly for years but at 6 and 8 Gb what use are they now? Even worse, a 20Mb (yes Mb) WD drive that came with an Amstrad over 20 years ago still works as does the rest of the machine but goodness knows what it could be used for these days other than space stealing.

Another point I find interesting is why would I not buy one of their lathes just because they can't make reliable hard drives? Chalk and cheese comes to mind when I consider the two technologies. Yes it does reflect their manufacturing philosophy but that has more to do with giving the "customer" what he is prepared to pay for. I don't think there is quite the downward price pressure or the competition with lathes and mills as there is with computer components.

I agree with your "sour taste" comment and that has been the case in almost every sector they have become involved with. However, I think you need to look a little deeper into the reasons for it. Of course there is Chinese self interest but the huge western investors who pay rolled (at least initially) much of the development did not seem to mind that they had a total "disregard for patents and intellectual property rights". In the frantic drive for profit to pay John's pension of course, they were and continue to be, prepared to turn a blind eye. Politicians and legislators including the United Nations are equally culpable as always, I wonder why?

I agree that they will certainly become hugely more influential in the next twenty years but I'm not so sure about the "world's major super power", whatever that is. With modern communication systems and the difficulty in containing the spread of information to even remote parts of the world, coupled with an increasingly better educated population, they might well have a "real" revolution to contain within the next 50 years. If so, and if that begins with a typical build up of military capability by the party in power trying to survive, then I don't believe we (at least my children unfortunately) will be worrying about who built the best lathes. I can't help thinking though that I might not choose to buy an investment property in Taiwan even if I could afford to.

So where does all that negative thought leave us? I'm ashamed to say that as one of the "great unwashed" with little or no money or influence, I can only enjoy the fruits of despotic "international capitalism" and buy a very reasonable lathe for a ridiculously cheap price while they are available. Sorry but I won't even feel guilty or culpable when I enjoy making things with it.

Regards

Keith

Reply to
jontom_1uk

PolyTech Forum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.