Humanoid Proportion info as ratios ?

On Mar 20, 12:18 am, "pogo"

Look at the Fibonacci sequence. Nature tends to use this sequence in
ratios for such things. This is also refered to as the Golden Ratio.
Wikipedia has a good article on Fibonacci numbers at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_number .

David Fowler
http://www.uchobby.com

On Mar 19, 10:18 pm, "pogo"

Tape Measure...  measure the lengths of your own arms, legs, torso...

The kind of information you are looking for is commonly presented in
books about drawing the human figure.   Try a search on the terms;
human proportions draw.  If you need to narrow it down, add terms
which are parts of the body.

Joe Dunfee

Awesome! You are right on the spot with this info!
For those interested, this GIF is exactly what I needed:
http://realcolorwheel.com/final.htg/2ani.gif
... and it can be found linked from this page: http://realcolorwheel.com/96.htm

Thanks Joe! PERFECT info !
JCDeen

lengths, torso dimensions, etc., as ratios ?

humanoid proportions so that it could be easily

bill, too.

What the others have said. You can also find this information at any
sewing pattern site, for typical male or female proportions. The ones
that cater to self-designers have calculators for adjusting size.

But why humnanoid? We're not the most efficient biped on the earth. If I
were to do something like this I think I'd model it after an orangutan
(not a true biped but capable of it), or something.

-- Gordon

I've been thinking the same...  A few artist friends helped me on a
design for a biped robot...  They hadn't ever seen any other biped
robots, and the design came out looking more orangutan looking
than human..  It never got off paper, but it would have been much
easier to balance and move the thing (than making it humanoid)

Rich

The truth is I just want to build a humanoid biped large enough to ( potentially
) do useful work. Plain and simple!

Later!
JCD

potentially ) do useful work. Plain and simple!

IMO even more reason to not model it after a human! An orangutan, as an
example, can lift a car motor. It can walk on its hind legs, but it has
the option of walking on all four legs, because its front legs are so
long.

The only thing keeping the higher primates from taking over the world is
their brains, not their bodies. Their bodies are better suited to manual
labor than hours.

Hmmmm...apes taking over the world. Sounds like a neat concept for a
movie, doesn't it?

-- Gordon

But as the great Isaac A pointed out, our machines are
designed to be operated by humans so human is the most
useful form :o)

Robin

There's a difference between human and humanoid in form. Many of the
great apes are humanoid in form, though technically they are referred to
as hominid. In the late 50s and early 60s NASA used chimps for
environmental training - and even the first flight - in the very same
capsules they used for the Mercury program. I think all they added was a
booster seat. The chimps could be trained to flip switches if they
needed to (they didn't need to as it was all automatic).

About the only thing to consider is leg length to reach a pedal. Easy to
overcome, as any little old lady driving a Honda Civic will attest.

-- Gordon

But if you are going to deviate from the plan why stop
there? Change the form, eliminate all the problems, remove
all the challenges, but where's the fun in that?

Why make 3cpo when r2d2 is so easy? :o)

Robin

R2D2 Can't navigate steps - except by falling down them - then he can't get
himself up if he doesn't happen to be lucky enough to land on his feet. :)

--
Curt Welch                                            http://CurtWelch.Com/
curt@kcwc.com                                        http://NewsReader.Com/

Ah, but as Gordon points out, you don't have to be humanoid in form just to
operate equipment meant for humans.  There are no doubt many options which
are far better than the form of a human.

Lets say we have advanced AI technology to allow our machine to be as
intelligent as a human (or more intelligent), and advanced enough to learn
on its own how to operate any sort of appendage, or sensor, or effector we
wanted to give it.  In other words, what if programming complex dynamics of
behavior were no long the issue.  So, if we wanted it to hop on one foot,
it would learn to do it as long as we gave it enough power to do it (or
enough spring).

Given that type of control logic power, what form might we actually build
machines which were meant to be general assistants for humans (could drive
our cars for us, go to the store and shop for us, cut our grass for us,
cook for us in a kitchen made for a human, clean for us with tools meant
for use by a human, etc)?

Of course if such technology was available, we would see a whole range of
robots of different sizes, shapes, and costs optimized for different tasks.
But ignoring that, what generic form might we see develop for a general
helper-bot which was designed so it could operate all typical human tools?
Maybe it would be something more like the Octavius AI-arms from Spiderman
where it was nothing more than 6 very flexible arms each with hands and
eyes with only a very small central body?  What other odd forms might they
be built in?

--
Curt Welch                                            http://CurtWelch.Com/
curt@kcwc.com                                        http://NewsReader.Com/

When humans deviate from the norm, life becomes awkward.
Humans don't have to deviate very far before parts of their
environment have to be adapted so they can cope. Any
deviation to gain an advantage in our ergonomic world will
prove a handicap somewhere else, you will have made a
cripplebot. My wife is 5 foot 2, the house is immaculate
except for the cooker hood which gathers dust, she can't see
it. With the benefit of my extra 10 inches I view it as a
small oasis of reality in an artificially sterile world.

Also, I'm getting old, want to play now, not enough time
left to wait for some future technology. I found the femoral
length to be the determining factor for the overall height.
Not because the levers are too long but because it's hard to
make it short and fit everything in. You can't just bung in
an RC servo when you want over 20 ft.lbf torque and some
degree of alacrity :o)

Perhaps my problem is that I'm an engineer who loves
designing lever systems. I see the human form as a
fascinating design constraint which makes it fun to do. Each
to his own I guess :o)

Robin

The constraint here is not mechanical but economics. Many of the
machines humans operate inside of can themselves be automated. If you're
going to spend the time and money on a human-like robot to operate a
fork lift, you would have long exceeded the budget had you just
automated the fork lift. (And in fact, they have those.)

Robots that work *around* humans and human-oriented machines are a
different matter, and in that case, it makes much less sense to insist
on strict humanoid proportions because they simply are not the best
suited for most manual labor tasks. Example: On a human the strongest
limbs are the legs, for running (after something, away from something).

OTOH, higher order primates like the arangutan have short stocky legs
because running isn't that critical, but arms powerful enough to rip a
person in two. Or more costructively, lift boxes or tools or lumber or
merchandise. THAT is the kind of strength that would be useful in a work
setting, don't you agree?

-- Gordon

Soooo ... I'm thinkin' BaboonBot ?
MonkeyBot ?
RoboRhesus ?
Positronic Primate ?

OK - just having some fun with it! :-)

Seriously, it does make more sense than I initially thought. For example, during
those times when the bot is not doing any work,
why waste power on maintaining balance when it can just drop down on all fours?
But I absolutely refuse to give my robot a tail!
On the other hand ... that might come in handy ...

potentially ) do useful work. Plain and simple!

And in *that* world, there is a Gordon McChimp trying to convince a fellow
newsgroup member to build his robot in the shape of a
human!

..... hehehehhehe ...

So would I :o(

The original design was in laser cut plate, all I had to
work with at the time and I couldn't fit it all in where it
got skinny, particularly the ankle and the forearm so I gave
up. I know have 2.5D CNC and I've come back to it, but it's
not easy finding the time and I've got a lot more
AutoCadding to do before I start cutting metal.

I haven't figured out the articulation at the base of the
rib cage. It's a power movement (I differentiate power and
gesture) and there isn't a lot of room for it because motors
don't squidge out of the way like intestines so the lower
abdomen is mostly off limits.

I'm also trying to design feet. You can extend the foot
through the Achilles, you can rotate it at the ankle, then
there's the twist. The twist has to be powered from inside
the foot unless you want to start messing with universal
couplings which makes the ankle fat. The toes twist a lot
further than the heel when you turn an ankle so the pivot
point has to be inclined. The pivot turns with the foot when
you extend it but it's movement becomes increasingly
restricted. I think this pivot has to move and align the
toes with the ground as the weight rolls forward off the
heel, and then lock either due to weight falling on the
toes, or due to the extension of the foot. The final twist
just before it leaves the ground can be achieved at the
ankle. Probably. It's so hard to see what's actually
happening, heaven knows I have tried :o)

Then there's the toes. Only one really counts, the rest
vaguely follow it. The big toe can draw power from the foot
extension and become part of it for gait. It also a screw
drive, sprung to allow some flex and gesture but mainly
providing a moveable stop that puts a hard limit on upward
movement so it can contribute to static balance.

You've probably guessed I don't get to talk about this stuff
much.

Robin