The mythical $5 microcontroller

I think us hobbyists are just plain cheap.

I've never had any of my customers come back to me and say my boards
are not worth the price.  In fact, mostly the opposite.  There are
over 50 parts on my MAVRIC-IIB board.  I sell lots of boards to
companies making and prototyping products and solutions, and I'm sure
you do as well.  These are folks where time matters a lot - they know
that the lost time spent breadboarding and testing the equivalent of
my MAVRIB-IIB would cost them many many times the price of buying them
from me already designed, debugged, built, tested, ready to drop into
their target application.  So the price is really a no brainer.

But us electronics/robotics hobbyists - and I'm guilty of this too, we
like building stuff.  Most of us have a DIY mindset.  I tend to build
my own h-bridges even though commercial ones are available.  I'm just
that way.  But if my company was paying me to "make something move," I
would not waste my company's time and money by building my own bridge
- I'd purchase a proven design.  If it's my own project and time is
not of the essence, I'll prefer to build my own, probably better than
most commercial products I've seen and with the exact features I want.
I do enjoy designing and building many of the parts I use on my
robots.

When it comes to radio modules - no way, it's out of my field of
expertise.  I like the MAXStream 9XStream transceiver modules
available from Digikey for $42 each and I'm happy to pay it.

While you might not be able to build your mythical board for $5, you
can get close or for a little more.  I would typically use a small
breadboard, ATmega8 or perhaps an ATmega32 DIP, MAX232 + 4 or 5 caps.
Program it using ISP using simple cable programmer to the PC parallel
port + a few resistors.  I perfer GNU GCC for high level C program
development which is freely available - not because it is free though
that is nice, but because it is superb and works extremely well on my
development environment of choice - Unix.

It _can_ be done very much on the cheap, the above parts are really
all that is required.  Probably around $10, even counting the
breadboard to hold it.  But it is _not_ a polished solution.


They exist - they're just not as polished as an end product.  I
consider these as being similar to MLW's hacked mouse encoder.  It
will just never touch a well designed built-to-purpose encoder made to
fit the motor.

As just a small example, I mentioned there are over 50 parts on my
MAVRIC-IIB.  Some of the more expensive parts actually go into
something as "mundane" as the power supply section; I'm a sticker for
good stable power supply with proper bypassing and the regulator is
superb.  Pricewise it is many times the cost of a typical 7805.  But I
don't want my customers' boards to die when they accidentally apply
power backwards (the regulator protects against that) and I absolutely
don't want to be chasing down phantom problems due to poor power
layout.  Good power layout is generally something that you can't
really even do on a breadboard due to the layout constraints.  So a
hand-made $5 or $10 circuit on a breadboard won't even come close by
comparison.

-Brian
--
Brian Dean
BDMICRO - ATmega128 Based MAVRIC Controllers
http://www.bdmicro.com/

Yes, I agree, and also agree with the word "us".

Sorry for the diversion, but this brings up a memory. In the mid-60's I
suffered a serious set back in my electronics program. The hogs broke
into the shed where my carefully hand dissected TV parts were kept. They
seemed to prefer those capacitors over anything else. Back then,
circuits were hand built, and it wasn't a circuit if it wasn't
mechanically twisted on _before_ the solder flowed. The pigs ate about
two years of manual effort unwrapping and recovering those caps. I was
devastated. Talk about cheap... I was mad about my capacitors. My dad,
on the other hand, was worried about his pigs ability to survive the
digesting capacitors. Anyway...


Oh, same here. It's not the customers who complain. Its those who don't
intend to become customers, that have the $5 micro, publicly waving its
legend at you.


Yes, that's true. But. What I'm suggesting, is, how did it come to the
point that our lives aren't even work $5 an hour? I mean, doesn't that
$5 micro cost at least 10, maybe 20, hours or more time out of our
lives, over buying an assembled one with support and just sticking it
in?

Are any of us getting younger out there by working on our robots?

Are any of us doing significantly better and more abundant robotics for
having taken many hours longer and saving a few bucks? or does that go
the other way 'round?

I'm saying, the same principle you already acknowledge for work, still
applies, when the end result is working robot vs. no robot working any
time soon. Even as hobbiest, we're using a false economy, no manager
accountable for results would accept.


Good point on power supply you make. Somethings DIY just can't reach the
point of "well done".

And that is sad isn't it? to be so cheap, we consume your life's blood,
the only thing we truly have a limited amount of, time, and in the end
not even have something polished? We spend our time reinventing the
wheel to save a few bucks, and get far less done, at a far greater price
than our bucks.

That's the part I'm suggesting is the tragedy of the mythical $5 micro.
It steals what life could have been, on the cheap.

--
Randy M. Dumse
www.newmicros.com
Caution: Objects in mirror are more confused than they appear.

Okay, but it's terrible english.

-- Gordon

You're right.  We.  "Us are ..." doesn't make much sense, my bad.

-Brian

: Yes, that's true. But. What I'm suggesting, is, how did it come to the
: point that our lives aren't even work $5 an hour? I mean, doesn't that
: $5 micro cost at least 10, maybe 20, hours or more time out of our
: lives, over buying an assembled one with support and just sticking it
: in?

Well, since you ask. :-)

I've run into both cases.  I've tried to build something myself, and ended
up paying more in parts then I would hvae on the unit (and do I ever wish I
had bought that motorized lazy susan when H&R had it . . .).

On the other hand -- It woud take a LOT to go from a $7.99 ATmega16 to a
$99 board. Yes, I spent $80 on a stk-500 -- but I've built four projects with
it, each of which as a $8 controller in it.  I've also fried 2, and would be
much more upset if I had blown two $99 boards.

Also, with sites such as AVR Freaks, you don't actually have to write most
of this yourself. There are enough pre-written modules that you can take an
$8 micro, add some existing software, and have PID going in no time at all.

Also, for me, any time spent IS the goal itself, not the means to an end.
It's a hobby -- building is the fun.

--
==========================================================
Chris Candreva  -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816
WestNet Internet Services of Westchester
http://www.westnet.com/

I don't see that at all. At least from my perspective, I think we are
creative people and don't like to us other's creations because we would
prefer to create it ourselves.

Sure we use economics as an argument i.e. the $5 micro, or "I think I can do
better," to defend our position, be in the end was are all just saying "I
want to create that."

I can really see cheap as a defense, because we will usually pay more for
tools and parts.

Also there is the reproducability issue. If I rely on your part, and mine
fails and you go out of business, what am I to do?

While not a very high end microcontroller, I have a whole box of picaxe
08's.  They dont make them anymore, they've upgraded to the 08M's which
are mroe powerful.  They're only an 8 pin micro, and cant take alot of
code because they're Basic based systems (on-chip interpreter) on a
flash PIC.  www.picaxe.com

While not as powerful as alot of things  I find them invaluable, and can
get them here (in america) through peter anderson for ~3.00 a piece
(actually 3 for $10)

They're only 8 pins, only run at 4mhz, are interpreted so  it's even
slower, but it's a single chip, programable via 2 resistors, has 5
I/O's, and room for enough code to make an amazing number of chips for
menial uses.  Revolution Education  (makers of the picaxe) also make
bigger chips, up to 40 pin, but I almost always go for the 8 pin version
when I need something done quick and simply.  I also use other pics, and
have recently moved to AVR's (AVRMEGA32 so far to be specific), but
being able to program them in basic takes only a minute, and programmed
through two resistors rather than a programmer takes jsut a few seconds.
  It's almost like having your own ASIC factory in jsut 5 mintues of work.

The holy grail of $5 micro's?  No.  Most of them are $15 and up unless
bought in serious bulk.  But Ii've used these little picaxes to get
around ALOT of problems very cheaply and very quickly.

--Andy P

Again a very close entry, but still not a system. And as you  say...


I really believe in having a stache of micro around you're familiar with
and "at the ready" to use. Even if you just use them for testing or
signal generation of some timing patern you need, you can save lots of
time, which usually in engineering circles translates to buckets of
money. The cost of the micro is completely inconsequential when compared
with the cost of your time not to have it.

Of course, I'd wish it was my processor everybody would fall in love
with, but hey, at least the principle is very sound! ;)

--
Randy M. Dumse
www.newmicros.com
Caution: Objects in mirror are more confused than they appear.

Rather than guessing at what people are building, there are a number of
sites that contain example robots and describe what's in them, and some
builders mention their cost. The DPRG, which you belong to, has a robot
gallery, but a very good one worth browsing is Robots.net, which I'm
sure you're also familiar with, as it's run by current and past DPRG
people.

I like to go to the index page and just thumb through the robots.
Knowing what people build really helps in knowing what they want to
build -- and therefore what they might buy. (Yes, there are a couple in
there with PICs and AVRs, along with some that have just one transistor.
That's the nature of hobby robotics.)

http://www.robots.net/robomenu/index-robot.html

Yes of course this $5 microcontroller may require some other investment
to program, but that investment is made once. You wouldn't expect your
car mechanic to go out and buy a new set of socket wrenches for each car
he serviced, right? People don't add in the cost of a volt-ohm meter or
oscilloscope or soldering iron to the pricetag of their robot. These are
tools of the trade that, once used, can be used again.

As for your AVR-based board not selling, what were you attempting to
sell? AVR development boards are a dime a dozen now, precisely because
of the popularity of the chip, and there are already some "leaders" in
that field. I don't think Parallax would have sold a 10th of their BASIC
Stamps had they not also provided thorough documentation, tons of app
notes, school curriculum, published books, magazine articles...you get
the idea. A $50 BASIC Stamp is a $5 microcontroller with $45 of support
behind it. That's how you have to look at it.

-- Gordon

[...]


Exactly!  The point I tried to make with mlw as
regards OS and computer languages.  You need more
than a good product you need to sell it by showing
the buyer it will get them what they want, not
what you think they should have.


-- John

Geez, Gordon, this is getting worse by the minute. I thought your $5
micro was stretching it. Now, one post later, they're $0.00833 for a

--
Randy M. Dumse
www.newmicros.com
Caution: Objects in mirror are more confused than they appear.

On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 12:16:24 -0500, "Randy M. Dumse"


Maybe that is an Ebay dime a dozen. Twelve boards for $.10,
shipping and handling is $100 per item . ;-)

Exactly! Now you're getting to the essence of it. The micro is cheap.

http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?Ref77168&Row#6377&Site=US

It turns out though, it's actually $15.05 from DigiKey.

Huh, imagine that? It ships for $15.05 but somehow only costs $5 on the
other guys board. Must be the new math. Oh well, this one is a little
better, and I might need the programming space.

Oh, come to think of it, isn't the shipping of the chip from DigiKey
more than $5? Opps, it isn't a through hole device, gotta make a board.
Can you get a single PCB made to hold it for $5? Or can you make a board
by hand for less than $5 of chemicals and broken drill bits? No, huh?
Isn't the shipping of the $2.50/sq.in.PCB more than that, too? Huh! It's
in now, +/-$40 some bucks later, and it still isn't working. Well, it's
just the matter of a simple program now. Any average robot maker should
have that knocked right out, in about two hours, and three weeks of hard
debugging and head scratching. And hey, don't forget those fuse
settings...

The Mythical $5 Micro!

A myth of vast proportions, and myth of lost dreams.

The Mythical $5 Micro, piloting many abandoned, silent, and motionless
robots. What a savings!

--
Randy M. Dumse
www.newmicros.com
Caution: Objects in mirror are more confused than they appear.

Certainly! In cars, micros are cheaper than wire. Look, I'm not talking
about volume processes. You really can get a useful micro for $.70 (even
in volume 1 ea). But that is a real micro chip, A chip, not a solution.
Certainly not the mytical $5 micro that is so often listed as the
solution to all our control needs.

That $.70 chip is known not to be the system cost. Is there a crystal?
Oh, no, another $.50. Is there a regulator? Oh yeah, well, I'm not going
to count that because I've already got 5V over... oh, it's not beefy
enough, I'll just order a heftier part, no problem.

The phantom $5 micro comes with all these included for free, doesn't it?

Now the mythical $5 micro is supposed to cost $5 and be the solution,
the answer, the unarguable indesputed rock solid pre-existant system.
Instead it is a phantom, as turns out, nobody has ever seen or realized
(in low volume).


Yes, this is a very good example. You could just as well say, "It's just
a simple matter of using a $5 micro" as to say, or at least to follow up
with, "problem can be easily solved because a program can be written to
do it". Rrrrrrrrrrrrright. Just those minor details, and we're finished.


--
Randy M. Dumse
www.newmicros.com
Caution: Objects in mirror are more confused than they appear.

Randy,

Wow, that's almost a rant!  We are getting to see a whole new side of you
:-)

I suppose you are right though.  I know that I am responsible (if not in
voice then in action) for being just as you state.  I tend to look at
something and think "I can do that and I can do it better!"  If only I did
not have to spend so much time earning a living then I would be able to make
a few more of those claims come true (or maybe not, but better to try and
fail than never to try at all).  Even when I do take some idea and run with
it, starting with a $5 PIC, AVR, or whatever, by the time I am done I
certainly have a lot more than $5 in the project.  Still, in the robotics
hobbyist community, we are specifically a group of people who in general are
exactly what you calim we are: We see something and think we can do it
better and cheaper.  We are dreamers who refuse to squelch our dreams just
because the reality of life (limited time and budget) keeps holding us back.
At the end of the day I would rather spend $100 and 100 hours working on
something that I made myself than buy someone else's kit and just glue it
together.  I think that the hobbyist community will always be that way.  We
are more interested in creating things ourselves, and working out the
problems ourselves and gaining a deeper understanding of the problems and
solutions than we get by buying canned parts.  It's simply way more exciting
to have your robot fail and have the h-bridge burst into flames than to just
buy one from IFI that can handle any motor you throw at without breaking a
sweat.  The feeling of accomplishment is so much deeper when you have built
it yourself and it actually works.  When I hear some youth Thunping down the
streen with a million watts of stereo in his car and I see that look on his
face of "I'm so cool because my stereo is better than yours", I always think
"yeah, you have more watts, but anyone who wants can just go to the same
stereo shop and spend a little mor money and get more watts than you.  If
you want to impress me, show me what YOU can do."  Robotics is the same way.
When I go to a competition and a winner opens up their bot and I see a bunch
of canned gear from known and reputable vendors, I think "nice kit, my 10
year old could have built that kit too and probably taken the prize."  I'm
much more impressed with the guy who lost because his h-bridge fried or his
PID loop went nuts when the 16 bit wheel encoder counter he used for
odometry rolled over.

I, like most hobbyists, have a load of bits and pieces that I have bought
over the years.  Some because they just can't be beat and some just to see
how they work.  For example I have one of your (new micros) ServoPods.  What
a cool little board.  While I'm not the biggest fan of FORTH in general, I
love the state machines and the "command line interface" give it such a
multithread OS feel.  I just love it.  However, I will admit that I have
only 1.  I use it to try out new things (like it's the first thing I
attached the theraminvision to when I got it assembled).  I even developed a
few I2C devices for a client and I used it to do the initial development of
the command set for the new slave devices.  But at $200 each, that same old
thing pops up in my head again: "I can do it better, faster, cheaper...",
and while that is actually not true, it turns out that the ServoPod is way
overkill for most of the applications I initially use it for, so by the time
I design something to replace it, the replacement is generally cheaper and
works as well as (or better than) the ServoPod because it's designed
specifically for the task (and never mind that when I buy from someone else,
they actually do like to make a little profit).

All of that said, that is my hobbyist approach.  When I'm doing work for
hire, I just want things that work and that I can hit the ground with
quickly.  Usually in the professional sense, time to market and reliability
are more important than unit price.  I have actually delivered a few black
boxes to clients that had a 'Pod inside.  But it sure wasn't a $5 part!

I guess where I'm going with all of this is that in the professional market,
a $5 microcontroller does not matter because engineering costs are spread
out over production quantities, and in the hobbyist market even if there
ware a $5 microcontroller we would still say "I can do that better, faster,
cheaper...".  I have quietly read many of your posts about your new motor
controller and it's many features and small size.  None of them have
mentioned a price point, but in my head I keep thinking "I can do that...".
However, when a project for hire comes along that needs something like that
NOW and that's proven to WORK and my own "better, faster, cheaper" unit is
not ready, you can bet that the first place I'll go is the new micros web
site and click the buy button.  I'll build what my customer wants and
deliver it with confidence that it's going to do what it's supposed to do.
Then after I get my check, if there is anything left over after I pay my
bills, I'll probably continue to work on my own "better, faster, and
cheaper" one.  That's just my hobbyist mentality.  I'll never let the dream
die...

-TE

   The $5 Micro could be made to work with seperate radio transceivers on
each port
thus making it a self-contained unit. Any additional components or
peripherals are then
in a seperate category from its deemed description. Add-ons are seperate,
affordable
commodities.
   What should be the transceiver range?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ashley Clarke
-------------------------------------------------------

As if the concept weren't hazardous enough?!?!

Oh, as long as we're just discussing mythical, why not spec the range
for just a little over half way around the Earth? Enough you could get a
good overlapping from low orbit. Not that we'd have to go far, like, the
moon or anything difficult like that. And all conditioned that it
doesn't raise the price much over the $5 mark. You know, $5.05 max,
don't you think? ;)

--
Randy M. Dumse
www.newmicros.com
Caution: Objects in mirror are more confused than they appear.

   Just glue a Bluetooth device ($5) to the centre of the Mobo and the rest
revolves around that!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ashley Clarke
-------------------------------------------------------