High power/ATF questions

I'm Hoping it is temporary. I have my L2 Cert but no LEUP. The vendors that come to our launches say that you can buy the motors at the launch without a LEUP with the idea that you are covered under their permit as long as you are there with them. However, if you don't use them they have to buy them back at the end of the day. You can not take them home with you. This is good if you are buying motors. But not good if you are into experimental rocketry.

I can't get a LEUP because my local jurisdiction will not allow me to have "fire works" at my house. Even sparklers are illegal. I tried to get some other LEUP holder to let me list them as contingent storage on my application but they are all scared stiff and did not even respond. So I went and bought some hybrids and stuck my tongue out at the BATF jerks.

KT

Keeping motors "in stock" requires a magazine to store them in.

A permit is not required to fly. It is required to purchase, transport, etc. See 18 USC Chapter 40.

There are no requirements at 27 CFR Part 555 for a magazine to be labeled and sold as such. A type 4 magazine has no thickness requirements on the metal. As has been pointed out before, aluminum foil covered 1/4" plywood meets the "metal covered wood" requirement. But a minimum level of security will be required and that is up to your local ATF folks. You do not need to fasten a type 4 magazine to the ground.

There has not been a "use only" permit since 2003 when the ATF removed the clause in their regulations that allowed it. Your choices are between a User of Explosives Permit or the Limited Permit.

Given that the PAD exemption is still going through final changes, is it not still in place? Yes, they've changed the 62.5 gram exemption/item, but that still leaves the PAD one intact (for the moment), does it not?

David Erbas-White

David Schultz wrote:

Simple answer is that the NAR/TRA lawsuit started prior to 9/11. And things have gotten much more restrictive since then.

Add into the mix, that motor vendors want to sell motors (Duh!). They might skate around the legal stuff.

When it comes to getting a LEUP, the very first place to check is your local codes. You might not be able to store motors, under any condition, where you live (That's the case in Phoenix). The local guys use DOT classification here, that date back decades.

Before you expend any more time, check with your local codes, and maybe your state codes (Ill requires a state permit, IIRC)

You w> Got back into rockets the last 2 years with my kids and have started playing

And/or talk to the Agency Having Jurisdiction (AHJ). My local Fire Marshal was very helpful.

Not as is, but it the metal jobsite boxes can be modified. First, peel off the label that says no flammable material. Then add a non-sparking liner. 1/8" plywood or Masonite works fine. Technically even cardboard would qualify.

I have a LEUP and I made my own magazine from a 20mm ammunition box obtained at a local military surplus store. I added a plywood liner to meet the non-spark requirment and a pair of padlocks. When the local agents checked it out, they measured the thickness of the metal and plywood and the diameter of the padlocks. They also asked about the number of pins in the locks. Those seem to be the hot buttons. The only advantage to buying something labeled and sold as a magazine is that you know that the requirements will be met without having to try to figure them out on your own.

Larry

Le> Got back into rockets the last 2 years with my kids and have started playing

I have a LEUP and I made my own magazine from a 20mm ammunition box obtained at a local military surplus store. I added a plywood liner to meet the non-spark requirment and a pair of padlocks. When the local agents checked it out, they measured the thickness of the metal and plywood and the diameter of the padlocks. They also asked about the number of pins in the locks. Those seem to be the hot buttons. The only advantage to buying something labeled and sold as a magazine is that you know that the requirements will be met without having to try to figure them out on your own.

Larry

Le> Got back into rockets the last 2 years with my kids and have started playing

Len,

If you don't have an apropriate area for storage you are out of luck unless you know someone with an LEUP for contingent storage. The rules are a bunch of bull crap as cored motor grains burn a little more rigorous than road flares. Uncored grains burn like road flares. Research shows that APCP can't be made to explode. The 50lbs. of BP the government allows one in the shooting sports to keep is more explosive. Yeah and like the reloaders are blowing themselves up right and left right? Not! They are getting along just fine thank you. Nonetheless, we are stuck with the crappy rules as they are and if you want onsite (read home) storage, you'll have to put up them as it doesn't look like we won't hear anything about the lawsuit until the summer. Even if the rocket guys prevail the ATFE can appeal like idiots as they don't have anyone else weaker to pick on. I am certain you will hear from LEUP holders who can help you out on the application process. You might want to get a copy of the archaic "Orange Book" that has the rules on must abide by. Folks tell me if you download the first few files of the paperwork the ATFE submitted to the court, it contains a copy of the Orange Book you could look at before deciding to go out and buy it. Try the Tripoli website or probably the NAR site might have it too.

I keep reading that APCP can't be made to explode. That depends on the amount. It can be made to detonate. I work at a rocket company and we have research that says APCP motors of large diameters and quantities can detonate. But of course those motors are far larger than any us HPR people will ever make or use. Were talking about motors greater than 60" dia with several tons of APCP. Heck look at Henderson Nevada. Their AP detonated without the fuel to burn.

KT

Just for grins here is a link that shows AP can detonate.

KT

Moral of the story is that the composition of commercial APCP we use in the quanities we use in the intended purpose we use it, it 'should' not explode. I suppose under the conditions that are not the intended use, you can get a lot of stuff that isn't normally considered an explosive to explode. Phil

Agreed,

The keyword is AP. Aerosolized grain dust or coal can explode. I suspect if it was simply a big pile of APCP grains, one would have a big fire but not an explosion. I have seen the recipe of an AP explosive that was used in World War One but the manufacturing of it is involved and requires the additions of explosive agents that are indeed dangerous and tightly controlled (as they should be). They are items that have no use in rocketry. I don't even believe there is a commercial use for this in the explosives industry today.

AP is a component of APCP - they aren't the same thing.

Oxygen and Hydrogen can combine explosively, and both are components of water, but water isn't an explosive.

-- Roger

Ya did'nt read the whole thing. APCP can if there is a large enough quantity.

KT

About what I did as well. Except I used epoxy paint as my on sparking liner. Had to paint over the bolt heads I used to install the shackles. They seem to like those round padlocks that John Cato turned me on to back when I first got into this stuff.

I don't understand why they measure the thickness when there is not thickness requirement, yet they use this thingie to measure the edge thickness, where the lip that is twice as thick as the rest of the box is. Clueless bunch of ID T's

Alas, that is not necessarilly true. They definitley didn't like the one a friend of mine bought commercially. Of course, when each agent makes up the rules as they go, you end up with Calvinball...

Not the form we use it in. Not the primary or intended purpose. Cake flour can detonate too.

AP is not APCP.

Yes, you are right there. We don't have motors 60" dia or larger weighing several tons.

Read the whole email. I said APCP can detonate given it is in a large enough hunk.

KT

Sorry, I took the bait once. I won't do it again. :-)

-- Roger

You need to read the accident report before you say there was no fuel. The AP was store inproperly, Too close together and with no barriers, House keeping was nonexistant and so the plastic shavings, scraps of all kinds mixed with AP was the initial fuel. The plastic containment vessels became the fuel later as this fire progressed.

Dennis