Confederate layouts?

I don't think we are apart on this. I'm just focusing on one aspect of Lee's character and beliefs. Obviously it was all extremely complicated - complicated enough to tear friends and families apart over the issues, and no doubt complicated enough to tear apart some men's souls.

Obviously there is no way of knowing when it would have happened without bloodshed. My point was that the legal system and enumerated powers of the federal government had been ignored to the point that the South was being destroyed economically via illegal means.

Sme of the results have been admirable, but the very same process has been abused countless times.

Yes, but sentiments change and people grow. May of the founding fathers permitted slavery, and even owned slaves, while abhorring the institution. They were men trapped in their times.

About three years is precisely when the document was issued. There is no exaggeration in that. The fact is there was much more to the war than slavery, so the Emanicipation Proclamation simply wasn't important until Lincoln felt it could have the effect of encouraging slaves in the Confederate states to see the war as a fight for their freedom.

Contrary to popular belief, there were previously emancipated (for any number of reasons, but sometimes on the condition of service much like in the Revolutionary War) slaves who chose to stay and fight for the South. I don't consider those men to be traitors to the black race.

And oddly enough, such men were fighting for the South long before the Union allowed black men to fight, let alone paid them for doing it. (And let's not forget that even when they were paid, they were paid less than white soldiers.)

Preservation of the Union certainly (though whether the federal government actually has the right to wage war towards that end is debatable.) But the threat of the union breaking up was due to intentional acts that caused economic disparities which threatened the very existence of Southern states.

very much snipped

I'm sorry to disagree. My count is based on March, 1861 to September,

1862.

The fact is there was much more to the war than

Are you saying he wished to encourage a slave insurrection? I hope not but I am aware that that was a very popular southern view at the time.

Right you are! Wage discrimination and only segregated units too. However, lets consider the South. In mid-March, 1865 (a month before Appomattox) the Confederate legislature passed a bill authorizing the enlistment of black troops. Ultimate emancipation was part of the package. There was much public discontent over this. Some, Lee included, however, were strongly for it even arguing for integrated units. Training was begun, but, I am unaware as to whether any of these troops saw combat. Can/will anyone supply relevant information? Before this, Blacks in the Confederate forces would mainly fall under two classifications: Individual slaves who, willingly or unwillingly, accompanied their "masters* as *pesonsonal servants* and auxillary forces primarily used for preparing fortifications and carting. Both groups probably suffered casualties. I do not believe they bore arms. I do not believe they were considered to be part of the army per se i.e. soldiers. Again, I would be grateful for any furher information in this regard. Particularly what, if any, wages were payed to said people? I strongly agree with Spender that these people should never be considered as traitors to their race. Consider the lack of choices availabe to them. BTW the Winnick book I suggested in my last posting provides a concise retelling of the Confederacy's attempt to raise black troops in the final days of the conflict.

In signing off, I'd like to express my appreciation for the civility I've found in this discussion. Thank you.

Jerry

The Emancipation Proclamation wasn't issued until Janurary 1, 1863. I'm not aware of the cause of the delay since the document is dated September 22,

1862. That's bureaucracy for you...

So April 12, 1861 to January 1, 1863. A little short of three years.

Spender wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@news.easynews.com:

"President Lincoln issued the preliminary Emancipation Proclamation in the midst of the Civil War, announcing on September 22, 1862, that if the rebels did not end the fighting and rejoin the Union by January 1,

1863, all slaves in the rebellious states would be free".

Source:

Google is a wonderful resource. May I respectfully suggest that you guys go find a newsgroup for discussing US civil war history and continue this discussion there ?

This newsgroup is sort of intended for discussing model railroading ...

TIA, Stein, modelling the Minnesota Transfer Railway ca 1962 in H0 scale

When I began submitting postings to newsgroups (or boards or whatever) I promised myself I would try not to offend *innocent bystanders*. I therefore apologize to you, and any other person, who is bothered by my recent postings on the US civil war. I note that I am not unique in having gone off on a tangent, but, that is no mitigation.

I will no longer write on this topic on rec.models.railroad!!

At present, I am more than willing to continue this discussion with anyone contacting me at my hotmail address. Thank you.

Jerry

Well, I wish to thank you all for this enlightening discussion!

I've wondered about the differing viewpoints, especially as regards to the Confederate Flag.

Thank you again!

Michael

Preliminary? You mean he threatened to issue it. Okay, so it's about 2.5 years into the war. A war to free the slaves and he didn't bother himself with any attempt to declare them to be free for 2.5 years after the war began.

One would have thought a war to free the slaves would have *begun* with the Union freeing them.

As for remaining on topic... I received my Confederate On30 loco and tender yesterday. It seems to be a rather cheap production, apparently manufactured by Bachmann. Far too cheap for what they (CollectablesToday.com) are charging. I'm sending it back. I wanted a relatively nice train, not a merely display piece.

Which is actually the Confederate Naval Ensign and was never carried into battle from what I have read.

And there were three different Confederate flags, a naval ensign, and a battle flag. IIRC, the last two were similar, except one was more or less square and the other a "flag-normal" rectangle.

" snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Relax, pal - it was just a gentle reminder, not a scream of pain :-)

I also find the US Civil War an interesting subject and have read quite a bit about the ciwil war and related subjects. There has even been a few history books published lately over here in Norway, following up on how the Civil War affected Norwegian emigrants to the US, who fought on both sides.

But there is a time and a place for anything, and right now and right here might not be the best place for a reenactment of the war between the states/war of rebellion ;-)

Grin, Stein

Thanks for the clarification. It merits elaboration on my part. Even before submitting my first posting to rmr, I was troubled by the combativeness shown by contributors to this group (and I considerer this to be one of the more restrained of the groups I visit). The resolution I mentioned in my last post is one of many I set down to govern my own behavior. Anal-retentive? Perhaps, but harmless to myself and others and unlikely I thought to ever cause flame wars.

I'd really would enjoy offering additional comments on the Civil War. However, you are correct. This is not the place. With apologies to A.A. I am a recovering off-topic poster. I have gone nearly twenty hours without ranting about a non rmr subject. (That is, unless you count the present post.) Thank you.

Jerry

" snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

LOL :-)

Btw, to change the topic a little to be just a tiny bit more on-topic - it might have been fun to to try to model moving a division down a single track branch line with too few and too short sidings, a lack of proper turning wyes, not much in the way of spacious platforms for loading/unloading etc.

Add a few outages caused by raiders burning bridges and such like, supply officers always asking for more supplies than they needed (and then needing to move it forward or back, depending on how the battle went) and keeping the traffic flowing might became prove quite challenging :-)

Guess one pretty quickly would have had to reinvent at least some of Herman Haupt's principles (according to this web page I just found:

:

1) No military officers were to interfere in the running of trains.

2) Supplies would be sent forward only as needed.

3) Trains reaching the front were to be unloaded immediately by anyone available. Officers who refused to cooperate faced dismissal.

4) Where telegraph communications were unavailable, trains would run according to a rigid schedule. All trains departed on schedule, fully loaded or not. Extra trains would pick up the slack.

5) On lines where the absence of sidings prevented opposing trains from passing each other, convoys of five or six trains would travel as a group. Each convoy delivered its cargo and returned to base before the next convoy started out.

Grin, Stein

Don't know if this has atready been mentioned - not interested in re-fighting the civil war (or reading about same in this forum). I have a neat book titled "Civil War Railroads" that is filled with railroad pictures and stories of the period. Author is Geo. B. Abdill and it was published by Bonanza book division of Crown Publishers. Think I got it from Publishers Clearing House but don't know if they are still around.

Dick

Ste> " snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com" wrote in

Regarding Confederate flags, there were three national flags, two naval ensigns, and numerous battle flags.

The Confederate that is all the rage today was originally the battle flag of the Army of Northen Virginia. Other COnfedrate armies also had distinctive battle flags, some similar to that of the Army of Northern Virginia, others not.

For more information, read "The Flags of the Confederacy - An Illustrated History" by Devereaux D. Cannon, Jr., or visit his web site:

For those who wish to continue this discussion in a more appropriate forum, I suggest using the newsgroup alt.war.civil.usa

Only in the sense of it having the stars and bars. The Army flags were generally square, or squarish, though they did use the rectangular version from 1864-1865.

The full 5:3 aspect ratio of this flag began as The Confederate Navy Jack and was used from 1863-1865. It was proposed as the first flag for the Confederate States but was rejected. I.e. the flag you see on the hood of Bo and Luke Duke's car. (Might be tattooed on Daisy Duke's ass also... I'd like to find out.)

So I was mistaken. The flag was eventually used in ground battle. But its use as the naval jack predates its use by the army.

Strange though that even though it was created to be the first flag of the Confederate States, but rejected for that purpose, it has become the first thing that comes to most people's minds if you say "Confederate flag."

Looking over that sight makes me wonder if the South lost the war because they spent far too much time pondering various flag designs... Geez guys, pick a flag and stick with it for Christ's sake. Were these guys too busy going over books of fabric swatches to bother planning battle tactics?

"pondflyer" wrote in news:1169588187.920674.35240 @q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Thanks for the tip.

Stein