I'm new (well, back after 40 years) to Model Rail Roading.
I have secured a room (after MUCH work on the wife) approx 10'x12' (the dreaded basement bedroom) to build my empire and I'm in the middle of planning a layout. I have come to the conclusion that HO is the scale to use, but am intrigued with the possibility of narrow gauge do to the type of layout (free lance 1920's mining and logging) and the somewhat limited space. I was given a Bachman Spectrum "Frontiersman" set by my kids (adults) for Christmas and will incorporate this into the scheme as an interchange for freight and passenger service for the area.
The problem I am having is finding HOn3 locos of the type I want (Shays, ect) that do not cost an arm and a leg. (My monthly budget, established by the said wife, is $150 give or take so a $1200 price is out of the question while $250 is doable.)
Are there any sources for HOn3 locos? Or am I asking for too much?
I strongly recommend you consider On30 - 1/4" = 1' scale running on regular HO track. A nice variety in now available from mass production suppliers, and more is coming out every year. You mention getting back in the hobby after 40 years, which puts you more than 50 or so, so if your eyesight is like mine, working in 1:48 instead of 1:87 will be a blessing. You can do quite a nice layout in your basement bedroom as the curves are about the same as HO, so many HO layout designs will work for On30 - you do need to increase the spacing on parallel tracks, which may mean one fewer tracks in a yard, etc., but this is a relatively easy adjustment. And you can probably re-use your Frontiersman set - a small scratch built 1:48 cab replacing the one on the Bachmann 4-4-0 will make a plausible small narrow gauge loco, and all the freight car trucks can be re-used on 1:48 kitbashed cars.
HOn3 remains pretty much a craftsman's scale with brass import motive power. HOn30 (1:87 scale using N gauge track) is a little less expensive, particularly if you are willing to kitbash N scale locos. Some HOn30 is commercially available, although I think most is of European prototypes (Egger-bahn, Joeff, Liliput). Geezer
I would also suggest that you start by building a shelf layout along one wall - a small town with depot, passing track, team track maybe, a spur or two for industries such as a box factory or brewery (those loggers and miners are a thirsty bunch), etc. Build or allow space for the curves around the corner that will connect this starter section to the rest of the layout. This will give you time to (re)develop your modelling skills, and try out the newer techniques and materials. It will also give you time to find out just what you really want to do - you're a newbie in effect, so you're certain to change your mind along the way. Not necessarily about the concept (which sounds well thought out to me), but about details. You also need time to (re)discover your what you don't want to do. Also, you can budget better. Benchwork, for example, will cost quite a bit. In my experience, newbies never factor in the cost of benchwork.
There's another reason: you will be able to show off a nicely finished layout section in a fairly short time, which will impress your wife with the hobby's potential. It might even inspire her to build some models herself....
But whatever you do, have fun.
And remind the wife that model railroading is cheaper than smoking. If you do smoke, then model railroading may help you quit. Giving up that expensive habit will make it easier to justify higher expenditures on the hobby. And it's healthier, too. :-)
MDC Roundhouse made several HOn3 locomotive kits and at least the Shay (perhaps others?) was available ready-to-run. Not sure what the current owner (Horizon/Athearn) is doing with these products... These were in your stated price range...
Fleischmann do on 0-4-0t O&K loco, prototypes exported around the world in any narrow gauge you asked for, and a nice outside crank Diesel of similar proportions, plus 4 wheel coaches and wagons.
It's known as "HOe" from European manufacturers Liliput and Roco are currently available, along with not cheap manufacturers such as Bemo and various expensive specialty manufacturers. Eggerbahn lasted 1963-69 and Jouef 1960s plus several batches in the mid
Are HOm (HO scale meter gauge track - used in Europe) and HOn3 close enough in track gauge to be able to use on the same track?
The problem with HOn30 / HOe here is that the selection of American freight cars is very limited. At least HOn3 has some D&RGW and C&W boxcars and such.
Unfortunately, it appears that Model Die Casting / Roundhouse / Horizon (who owns them now) has stopped producing the HOn3 line of equipment - at least for the time being.
HOn30 looks like it is a better option in terms of cheap locomotive availability - one could start with a Roco 0-6-0 or 6 wheel diesel. I'm not sure how much those are selling for now, but 10 years ago either of those could be found for $50 or slightly less. Unfortunately prices for imported items have become outlandish because of the USA's currency dropping on international markets in recent years.
formatting link
Yes, those are European prototypes, but that can change with some detail parts. There was an article in Model Railroader about 20 years ago about using various super detail parts from various manufacturers to turn one of Roco's 6 wheel HOn30 diesels into a fairly good looking USA style locomotive. I notice that there are some interesting projects out there that do the same thing with their little 0-6-0 industrial steam locomotive:
formatting link
Roco does have an interesting selection of freight cars and some of those could be useful for the suggested railroad, but much of the larger 4 axle stuff is definitely European looking.
formatting link
How do HOn3 freight cars look when put on HOn30 trucks? That might be a good solution to the limited USA freight car selection for HOn30. 6 scale inches in track gauge shouldn't make too big a difference in the size of the freight car, and I know that some model companies used to advertise their narrow gauge stuff could be used as either HOn30 or HOn3.
HOm is 12 mm railhead to railhead. HOe is 9 mm railhead to railhead. HOm will not run on HOn30 as HOm is trying to model 39"+ railhead to railhead instead of 30". HOn3 (3' or 36"is about 11.5 mm and HOn3 is not compatible with HOm.
The Athearn/Roundhouse line has been combined and reorganised. Horizon is offering N scale locos under the Athearn brand. If you're thinking of adapting N to HOn30, some may be suitable.
Micro Trains Line has started a line of HOn3 cars, very nicely done. When I look at them I'm tempted to build a small HOn3 layout, just to use these lovely little cars. :-) MTL are releasing new models every month or two. In the $20-30 range, ready to run.
Roco declared bankruptcy about a year ago, and was bought by a venture capital group. Their product line is, as they say, "in flux." Expect increases in prices as products are re-released.
You could adapt N gauge locos to HOn30. The closest N gauge locomotives to what you want would probably be LifeLike's 0-6-0 saddle tanker, listed at $38 in Walthers catalogue (Walthers now owns LL, BTW). I can't vouch for its quality, but LL's diesels are very nice runners. Mind you, they cost considerably more. :-)
Bachmann offers an 0-6-0 switcher at $48 list price. Also an MDT diesel at $33. Bachmann quality is variable, but a bad loco can be sent back for repair or replacement. One thing that's important is to lube any Bachmann loco before running it.
Er, yup. There are good reasons for that.
Yes, that's so, and many people still do this, using N scale as well (see above).
But once the prices of detail parts etc are factored in, you may find that this supposedly cheap loco turns out to cost about as much as the expensive one you didn't think you could afford. So unless you want to do the adapting and detailing work for its own sake, you may want to do a careful analysis of the "total cost of ownership". Personally, I factor in the cost of my time, too. And sadly, there are fewer and fewer detail parts available, as scratch-building has become rather small niche market.
[...]
[snip]
They look just fine, IMO. Keep in mind that the sizes of narrow gauge equipment, even for the same gauge, varied greatly. Look at the EBT, for example: this 3ft gauge line ran coal hoppers of about the same size as the smaller standard gauge ones. I would take care to use cars that are basically the same width, which will give a realistic looking consistency. So the bottom line is: if it looks right to you, it is right.
It seems to me that your decision is being driven by the apparent high cost of HOn3 locomotives. Well, that's your privilege - it's your wallet that will take the hit, not mine. :-) I sense that you really want HOn3, but are scared off by the relatively high acquisition cost of HOn3 locomotives. You're arguing yourself into a compromise, and while compromise is of the essence of model railroading, IMO, a compromise based on mere cash isn't one you'll be happy with. I would urge you to consider that total cost of ownership. I've been around long enough to know that acquisition cost is often a surprisingly small fraction of that cost of ownership.
Also, consider how long you expect to enjoy this hobby. From that point of view, even a high priced locomotive may turn out to be a bargain. Suppose you spend $300 - over 10 years, that's $30 a year, or less than
10 cents a day. If you are a regular at the local caffeine dispensory, you'll spend far more than that. If you smoke, you'll spend even more - and smoking is unhealthy to boot. So even what looks like a major cost of what are after all merely toys may be well worth it, compared to other, er, cheap thrills.
It's good to see another 'narrow minded' modeler :-) I've been modeling in Hon3 since 1980 , N scale since
Also dabbled in Hon30 and a little in Nn3. Nn3 .....way too small. I stil have some of the Nn3 equipment in the boxes and thats where they will stay.
I also bought a few pieces on On30 and although the motive power and rolling stock doesn't require much space as far as radius goes , but the structures sure eat up the space. Well , 4 times as much as HO. I did however , build a small diorama for my On30 Bachmann Shay and and caboose but that will be the extent of my On30 modeling.
There is quite a bit of equipment available now in Hon3. You just have to look for it. Although still limited , it seems as though there is more Hon3 available now than a few years ago , at least in what I model.
There used to many engines available in Hon30 back in the 80's but most of those companies are gone now. There's still a fair amount around but not like it once was.
Many people talk about the limited availabilty of engines and rolling stock , but when you think about you really don't need much for narrow gauge. You don't need a yard full of engines and cars since an average prototypical train can be as few as 5 or 6 cars and usually no more than 10 on the logging and mining roads.
As someone else mentioned , Micro Trains is making some RTR Hon3 cars. They are beautiful. I bought two of the first releases which were reefers. They were 24.95 each if I recall correctly.
I love the charm of narrow gauge and the size of the motive power and rolling stock. Also many of the buildings weren't very large at all out on the line so one can really get the illusion of a larger layout in a small space.
I would suggest buying a copy of Short Line Narrow Gauge Gazette and Light Iron Digest. Lots of information and sources for equipment . In case you aren't familiar with those magazines ,here are the links.
formatting link
If you decide to get into Hon3 I would be glad to give you some sources for equipment.
No - HOm uses 12mm gauge - the old TT gauge which is still a popular scale in Europe. Peco, Bemo and Tillig all make track. Tillig makes TT rolling stock and Bemo makes HOm. HOn3 uses 10.5mm gauge. HOe/HOn2.5 uses 9mm track. (N gauge) This is probably the most popular narrow gauge/scale combination because HOm/HOn3 stock can be regauged and N gauge mechanisims can form the basis of home constructed locos.
Outside the USA I think this is definitely the case. Inside the USA HOn3 is certainly popular because of the popularity of the Colorado narrow gauge lines.
I'm a little surprised that Frateshi doesn't make any HOe/HOn2.5 equipment. Up until about 1984 there was about 150 miles of 30 inch 760mm gauge track in operation in Brazil. About 8 miles of it remains as a tourist operation. They have 4-6-0, 2-8-0 and 4-4-0 locomotives and at one time operated a fairly extensive fleet of freight and passenger cars. If they were to produce some of those as HOe models I would think they would sell reasonably well in the USA and Europe as well as the Brazilian market.
Brazil is a limited market - they (Frateschi) need to make base models that will also sell well elsewhere in reasonable numbers. That means they have to focus on common prototypes, not niche markets which is what HOn3 is.
As far as time and parts available goes I can understand all that, but money? Just in the curiousity search I did related to this thread, the cheapest HOn3 steam locomotive I saw was in the $350 range. You might be able to get down to the $100 range if you buy a Grandt Line boxcab diesel and put in a power unit, but then you are still talking about a project locomotive.
For the simple Roco HOe / HOn2.5 0-6-0 steam locomotive, this same curiousity search turned up prices as low as $90. It would run just fine out of the box, with no modifications needed. One would have to add an awful lot of detail parts to get the price up to $350. Even if you wanted to add detail parts, you could do so over time since it isnt' vital to the locomotive's function.
Modification of N scale locomotives could come later, if desired.
In either modification of N scale locomotives or super-detailing a European HOe locomotive, there is the added bonus of having something reasonably unique.
Brazil's limited market makes some sense here, but:
The same is true for anyone making a plastic version of a limited prototype model (think plastic mold purchasing). HOe/HOn2.5 is made by a number of European manufacturers, two of which are doing so at non-specialty prices. Therefore, on an international scale the market for HOe/HOn2/5 doesn't appear to be that limited.
The diesel locomotives that Frateschi makes are definitely aimed at Brazilian model railroaders, as those are types that are certainly not seen in the large markets of North America or Europe. They *might* be acceptable stand-ins for locomotives in Africa, Asia or Australia, but how big are those markets for those particular locomotives? I agree that their steam locomotives are generic enough for popularity in North America (the 2-8-0 is marketed in the USA, I believe as a Model Power locomotive) but what you say doesn't seem to be the case with their diesels or some of the other products that they make.
The German (language) market is large enough to cope with the odd specialty product from a big manufacturer. Roco's previous HOe Diesel and steam locos were around for 25 years and used a chassis common with an N scale loco and an Atlas N Diesel shunter. They produced 6 or so basic wagons for most of that 25 years.
We get them here in NZ, factory painted in suitable liveries. I guess every extra sale is worthwhile.
The best evidence is that Frateschi continues to exist after about thirty years of production. Long may they continue!
PolyTech Forum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.