Loft advice

Unless you are active in opening and shutting at the right times this will have a worsening effect!

Money to buy, money money money to run.

I don't know what insulation is available over the counter at DIY shops in the UK - here in NZ we have spun pink fiberglass "Batts" which can be (cut to size and) put between the joists etc under the roof. After that you still need some lining to make the ceiling look presentable. It's a long but not too difficult job for anyone who can bang together a layout baseboard. Cut the ceiling panels downstairs and carry them up in their new size rather than trying to get full size sheets through a trapdoor! :-) Once that is complete you will need a couple of bathroom type extractor fans so that you can move the stagnant air and moisture out. Preferably they should be situated on end walls at opposite ends to get the best overall airflow.

It worked for me in -10C to +40C degree temperatures.

Regards, Greg.P.

Thanks for that Greg.

Only problem here might be the thickness of the walls at either end. Uk buildings have 100mm brick x 50mm cavity x 100mm breeze (cavity) block. That's a 10" tunnel to drill and then extract from.

I'm interested in the idea as it's no worse than installing a cooker hood extractor.

It's a 4th option and that's what I was looking for..

I'm kinda hoping Steve Jones

In message , Gary Brown writes

Strongly suggest you post the same question to uk.d-i-y, where the subjects of lofts, temperatures, conversions etc. often arise. The experts in there will give good advice.

"Gary Brown" wrote

I'm kinda hoping Steve Jones

Gary, Looking at one of his first OMWB pictures, he has the same loft as myself and my father (well, more like his for the rake and length!!) He does nopt appear to have done anything as you can still see the 3 inch thick joists? and the black lining on the inside of the tiles.

I am very impressed with what he has done base board wise, and look forward to the day he starts the scenery - although I do worry about all this american stock he seems to run these days?

I'm looking at some point to install an old bathroom extrator fan over the airbrick. I'm not sure yet if this is as good an idea as it sounds! The floor is all done with the overlaping chip boards from Wickes (which makes a change as when I moved into my house - you would have thought I had taken a bed to my local B&Q for the amount of time I spent there!)

I have also done simular with beams betweeen the V's and the cross members to boards just lay on top to give a little bit of movement should there be any settling or expansion from heat etc...

Next project may be to install in a railway coach!

I very much doubt Steve will read this but I can answer for him as I've visited the Jones loft on a number of occasions. The answer is absolutely nothing.

My setup is exactly the same. I've had no problems with stock etc. I don't think that the temperatures we are talking about will have any affect on modern materials. Track is much easier to lay when it's hot as that way you can reduce the expansion gaps to nearly nothing. Lay track in the winter and you need to allow large expansion gaps. I don't find the winter a problem as the lack of wind chill means it never gets that cold. Summer is a different matter. On the hottest days I just give it a miss! My advice would be simple, no nothing and spend the money you save on more locos.

Nigel

The extractor fans could go through the roof right beside the ends - the problem would be that all the ones I've seen are designed to mount vertically - the rain would come in at 45degrees - perhaps you don't get much rain?

If there is a gas appliance on any of the floors below you risk sucking carbon monoxide out of the flue and into the loft with potentially lethal results.

(kim)

The extractor fan should suck from inside and blow to the outside! Oue fans in NZ have shutters to stop airflow when they are off.

Regards, Greg.P.

If you put a roof light in you may get big trouble from your council. When I enquired they viewed this as making the loft habitable which means strengthened joists, fixed stairs and a fire escape from the loft plus big problems if you come to sell. I used 2 inch fire retardent polysterene but I had to build up the rafters(?) to maintain a 2 inch air gap. The more insulation the better. I then put up plasterboard and got a plasterer in but that isn't necessary. I am still building my layout so haven't had to endure a very hot summer or very cold winter. I see the summers as more of a problem than the winter. Like you as a last resort I was considering an a/c but to be honest, the number of days in the UK that I wont be able to get into the loft due to excess heat I can count on the fingers of two hands. I'll just go down the pub on those days.

Kevin

Nigel,

Thanks for giving me a fifth option!

I've been impressed with Steve's layout and website for a number of months now and if nothing works for him then clearly nothing is a good option!

I already have one section of flexi track that now has an S-bend in it due to expansion, this was all laid at Xmas and I clearly didn't leave enough expansion space. This has expanded having been laid at 5c and even now at only 15-20c is permanently bowed in and out.

Assuming I am going to relay large areas of my layout (which I am!) I assume that laying at 20c or so would mean very little expansion gaps would be required.

Can anybody suggest a guide figure for different temperatures?

Andy, I agree that Steve's layout is impressive and the man can clearly wield a jigsaw!

Are you able to get in the U.K. those roof extractors which go up through the roof and on their top have a sort of spherical bladed rotating device which is not power driven but turns by wind power? Here in Aus. they are sold to ventilate the ceiling space in summer conditions. They are rain proof. I don't know how effective they are, but one sees them on some houses. They are a bit like a large Flettner coach ventilator. Regards, Bill.

I'm just starting out on layout construction in a similar roof.

Be careful how far you go. Planning permission is not generally an issue. If you ever want to sell the property you will have to make a declaration that you haven't made any changes that should have had building regs approval. Fitting a roof light almost certainly will as you will be altering the structure of the roof unless you can find one narrow enough to fit without cutting any joists. Fitting a window in a gable end facing the road will require planning permission. Anything that brings you to the attention of building control may result in them declaring that you are making the loft habitable.

If you fit forced ventilation then be sure to arrange it so that the fresh air is drawn in from the shady side of the house.

It doesn't have to be any special sort and it's not impossible to DIY. What you do need is an air gap between the insulation and the existing roof, plus soffit and ridge vents to allow air to flow through the gap. This may also need building regs approval. Getting it wrong and allowing stale moist air to collect behind the insulation could seriously compromise the roof.

Our soffits and fascias were rotting so we had uPVC ones installed with a continuous ventilation strip in the soffits. This definitely helps a little in allowing more airflow across the loft but I think it will still be too hot on some days. Just having a fan helps in moving the air around and makes you feel cooler.

Make sure you lay track during a warm period and leave plenty of expansion joints.

Regards,

Andrew

"kim" wrote If there is a gas appliance on any of the floors below you risk sucking carbon monoxide out of the flue and into the loft with potentially lethal results.

(kim)

But as my hot water boiler is in my kitchen, which as per 99% of UK houses (Someone here will be an exception I know!) surly I stand this risk in the bedroom upstairs? But then- I always thought Carbon Monoxide sat near the floor? (Or is that Dioxide?)

sucking

There are rules about how far away the boiler flue "terminal" can be from an opening window.

I think Kim's point is that sucking air in by mechanical means is a much greater risk than what might waft in through an open window.

Andrew

No they don't, unless the original permission for the part of the building incorporating the gable specifically excludes windows (or if its a listed building where that permission is required)

Mike Parkes snipped-for-privacy@mphgate.removetoreply demon.co.uk

You forgot the vapour barrier (moisture barrier). It's _essential_ to install this plastic sheet on the inside, before you install the plasterboard. It will prevent moisture from you (breath, perspiration) getting trapped in the insulation and causing mold. It also helps to have at least passive ventilators near the peak of the roof (one for every 12-15ft of roof length), and there must be an airgap under the soffit so that the air can move between the insulation and the roofskin.

In that case, a bathroom fan to bring air into the loft will help some. Install it wrong way round, so it sucks air from outside. You don't need to create a hurricane, just push cooler outside air into the room to displace the hot air. (Come to think of it, you might need that whenever you're up there with your pals... :-)) Put a screen over the intake - you don't have mosquitoes like we do, but you do have midges.

A long cool one _is_ airconditioning. :-)

We call them whirlybirds. They work very well, even in winter, when they extract warmish air from underneath the roof and so prevent ice build up near the eaves. A good quality one will last upwards of 20 years.

Where I live the heating system is behind a door in the kitchen with a flue venting directly to the roof. There are vents top and bottom of the door. There is also a low level vent in the outside wall which acts as an air feed and a high level vent to prevent a build-up of carbon monoxide. I've been told I'm not allowed to have an extractor fan in the kitchen (which gets very hot and smelly) or an extractor hood over the cooker. Even these precautions assume the kitchen door is kept closed at all times which is highly impracticable. With the kitchen door open the extractor fan in the bathroom upstairs can theoretically suck carbon monoxide back down the flue, out of the kitchen and into the upstairs rooms. One gas fitter even told me I should have the suction measured to make sure it wasn't interfering with normal operation of the heating system.

(kim)