Model Rail - Gem Kit

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: > Picking up on what you said in your reply to MBQ, if you are serious : > about improving your skills have you though about joining the EM Gauge : > Society - many people who have no intention of adopting EM gauge join : > just for the technical tips and the like, and AIUI they are not : > elitist like the P4 lot can sometimes be! : >

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: Thanks for that, will look out for one before start jidenco kit - probably

Gulp! I knew a few experienced kit builders who shied away form those (could be different these days)...

: saved a lot of grief. Not really a joiner but may do in this case. :

Well worth joining the EMGS even if only for the manual/data sheets that come as part of your membership, and this is why the first years membership is higher, to cover the cost of supplying all the data sheets so far published.

Also, going back to your mention of loco weight distribution, you might like to take a gander that the following URL ! :~)

Actually there is a lot of good info and tips from what I can seen on the main site.

On 13/02/2009 22:39, simon said,

...and that's why people can be put off kit-building. The feeling is that if they can't even build a kit the way Model Rail (a beginner's magazine) tell you to, then it isn't for them. That's so wrong - when shown the right way, anyone can build a kit. Iain Rice's books have been mentioned - it was through his books and his style of writing that I realised that I can do this. Now, I don't necessarily do things his way, but the important thing was that by starting off his way I've gained the confidence to go off and do things my way. People have been kind enough to comment favourably on the models on my website, but I too started off not being able to get an 0-4-0 to run!

On 13/02/2009 22:41, simon said,

Nooooo!!!!!! Jidenco have a hell of a lot to answer for in putting newbies off kit-building! The problem is that they're cheap so attract people who aren't sure of their abilities, then when the kit doesn't go together they assume it must be them and not the kit.

Seriously, you ought to stay away from those until you have more experience building kits where the parts actually fit together. Jidenco (Falcon Brass) kits do have their place, but the approach needs to be more along the lines of using the parts in the kit to help build a model of a specific loco, rather then building the kit. There's a subtle difference.

And yes, join the EMGS, even if you don't intend modelling in EM or P4. If you don't want to, you don't have to be an active member, but what you get for your membership is well worth it.

: : Seriously, you ought to stay away from those until you have more : experience building kits where the parts actually fit together. Jidenco : (Falcon Brass) kits do have their place, but the approach needs to be : more along the lines of using the parts in the kit to help build a model : of a specific loco, rather then building the kit. There's a subtle : difference. :

Indeed, they should be classed as a scratch-builders aid, not as

*kits* in the sense that most would think of kits, Jidenco are a couple of steps higher than sheets brass IMO... A lot of work is needed, a lot of fettling and fitting.

It's just a pity that Alan Gibson etched loco kits are off the market ATM as they were well designed, well etched and one could buy all (less motor) the other components required from the same stable so you will know that everything is compatible.

I once built (and this will show how long ago it was, to those in the know) a Perseverance chassis kit for the Airfix/Mainline N2, lovely kit, when together nicely until I tried to install my nice set of Maygib wheels - the frames just would not fit between the wheel sets! - at first I though that I had been a silly-billy and used the EM frame spacers (building it to P4) by mistake, no I had used the P4 spacers, then I though that I have somehow messed up on fitting the wheels to the axles, no they were correct - chatted to a couple of people but they couldn't shine any light on the problem. I finally phoned the (then) owner of Perseverance kits who was quite happy to explain that the kit had been designed around Sharman wheels and that it was quite possible that my wheels would/could not fit [1], so he told me to send my wheels to him and that he would send me a set of Sharman wheels by return, and if anyone remembers the price/quality difference back then you will know that I was quite happy with the suggestion!

[1] the design of the centre axle boss was quite different due to how the wheels were retained on the axles

Yes thank you both - yourself and Jerry - I had already read about Jidenco and this is one of the old ones not a replacement Falcon one. Know my limits and have read most of Iain Rice;s books - marvelous indeed. Have specially ordered and read his Etched loco construction which had me constantly switching between no thanks and yep go for it. however main point is that it will be a long term project that will be finished when it is finished. Intend to have a go, do something else then have another go. Professionals do avoid them cos for them time is money, whereas if have to keep stopping, go back redo or constantly make some part afresh then doesnt matter.

Tender has been built and looks ok, rest of kit appears complete except the frames are missing, so there is the first task. Got all instructions and drawings

Yep think it was cheap at £60, esp as includes complete set of Alan Gibson driving wheels as well as enough tender/bogie wheels for a few locos.

Cheers, Simon

OK will reconsider the em group. But theres a heck of a lot of info on that site :-)

Thanks, Simon

Hi Simon,

- your loco needs it's axles in line. (ie parallel to the rails)

- your loco needs it's axles parallel to each other. (across the loco.

- bearings need to be the right size for the axles.

- coupling rod bearings need to be at the same spacing as the axles.

- wheels need to be concentric.

- crank pins need to be parallel with the axle.

- crank throw needs to be consistant between wheels.

- quartering needs to be consistant.

- wheels need to be at rightangles to the axle.

Romfords cover the last 5 points, but didn't a long time back.

I try to drill connecting rods and chassis sides in one go and then open out the axleboxes. Using a milling machine gets them in line and parallel, but I've done them with a Black and Decker in a cheap B&D drill stand using a clamped on wall (bit of brass and cheap G clamps) to get them parallel. Before I discovered reamers I used good quality drill bits and didn't have any problems. The stepped axles sound like a good idea for setting up a chassis - been meaning to turn some up for the last 20 years! Never had a jig - I just use some parallel bars (ok, some brass bars) placed on a heavy mirror (as close as I get to a surface plate) I use some 1/8" drill rod through the axle holes and sitting on the bars on the mirror. That gets them at the right height and in line. Use some graph paper on the mirror to make sure the chassis frames are 90 degrees. (ie axles are at right angles to the track)

I don't believe I can do any better or that I need to do any better. It wrks for me from 2-4-0s to 2-12-0s.

Greg.P.

[ re Jidenco kits ]

: Professionals do avoid them cos for them time is money,

Not sure about that, 'professionals' (whoever they are?...) kit builders could well use them as a source of scratch building parts - as such they could well save themselves time.

Was thinking about that this afternoon after Jerry's explanations. Got to cut out frames anyway so obvious now to use connecting rods to determine axle centres. May be an idea to start holes through connecting rods ? May use computer to get a drawing of frames with axle holes to ensure they are centred. have concentric circles at axle holes as guide to reaming - need all help can get.

That is where the comet jig is useful. put big round bits fair distance apart with a romford screwdriver through the axle that is nearest the spacer currently being soldered in place. Move screwdriver to next axle and solder.

Thanks. Simon

Well, I start with the connecting rod hole spacing (scale measurement) and then try to arrange frames and rod blanks in a stack and drill them all at once. Then I open out the frame holes to axle or bearing size. (Ok, I'm getting awfully pedantic) :-) The "trick" is always to think ahead lots about the following requirements so that the bodging bits are made accurate by what went before. (things like having to solder inside the tender body after you've sealed it up :-) My best one was designing cylinders that screwed on through the inside of the frame where the solid combined frame spacer/ smoke box saddle was screwed in from the outside. The cylinders covered the screw heads on the outside of the frame. (Duhh!)

I think you're just about understanding what it's all about.

That's where I use the drill rod!

Greg.P.

Daft - you want to talk about daft things - heres a least embarrassing ... I used to think about fixing body to chassis as the last task when every thing else complete. Got caught out when cut screw for bogie too short. Spent lot of time working out how to use shortened screw or replace it without damaging paintwork (yep really was last thing). Then after all the delicate handling the chimney fell off - oh thats a usefull hole just revealed.

Cheers, Simon

Haven't exactly done that one, but I bought screw cutting attachment for my lathe to solve the problem of losing screws and having to order new ones from the other side of the world. (Dear Customer, that part is not currently available from our spares department)

Greg.P.

The worst kit I ever bought was a Crownline "complete kit". It consisted of a loco chassis designed to go under (the loco body of) a tender drive RTR loco, a loco body kit that seemed to have started life as a replacement resin firebox/boiler and detauling kit for said RTR loco, a whitemetal body kit for the motorised tender, and a tender chassis. Like most "complete kits" it didn't come with wheels, gears or motors. OK, that's usual, if not ideal for some, but the rag tag assortment of sub-kits had been put together with absolutely no though as to how it *could* be motorized. Rant over.

MBQ

: : Daft - you want to talk about daft things - heres a least embarrassing ... : I used to think about fixing body to chassis as the last task when every : thing else complete. Got caught out when cut screw for bogie too short. : Spent lot of time working out how to use shortened screw or replace it : without damaging paintwork (yep really was last thing). Then after all the : delicate handling the chimney fell off - oh thats a usefull hole just : revealed. :

The above and building the body and then trying to build/bodge the chassis to fit the existing body are probably the two most common errors made by inexperienced modellers...

But never mind, as long as one never make the same mistake again one is learning! :~)

: Like most "complete kits" it didn't come with wheels, : gears or motors. OK, that's usual, if not ideal for some,

It is rarely ideal to inclued such items and certainly not were wheels and gears are concerned.

On 18/02/2009 08:30, snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com said,

On the lower end of the kit market what ought to be offered is something like a "completion pack" to complete these 'complete' kits. There's at least one advertiser in RM that apparently *only* sells kits complete with wheels etc, which simply means that many people will go elsewhere. Even if I modelled in OO I wouldn't use Romford wheels...

I live in New Zealand - by the time I order and receive a kit and find out what bits are required to complete, order and receive those, the best part of a year has gone by.

Greg.P.

Yep, found wobbling whitemetal bodies cause shorts and wheels rubbibg against the body. Both deadly for good running. This is the first time ensured got them fitting together properly and can be seperated many times without problems - ie not using suggested self tapping screw.

Another trick in the looking ahead method is to check wheels dont rub against body before adding cab roof - at that point theres a clear view inside.

Cheers, Simon

Most kits I've looked at have a recommended combination of wheels, gears etc but as you imply you dont get that info until you have the kit. Used to be a problem but now happy with that as Andrew at Branchlines sorted me out with simplest combination of gears/motor. Also by ordering kit in 4 parts it avoids the £100+ entry on the card statement - very useful for those of us not in control of finances.

Cheers, Simon