another noob

I'm getting into welding as a way to continue the tradition from my grandfather (Navy airplane mechanic/GE aircraft engine inspector until retirement) to me and get a chance to hang out with him. He's got a Lincoln buzzbox and a MIG setup, and I'd like to complement those with a gas setup of my own. I've read through Welder's Handbook by Richard Finch about 10 times and I've got most of my setup planned or purchased, apart from the actual torches and tanks. I'm stuck on whether to get the portable tank/torch kit and do exchanges on that to get started, or to jump right in and get a torch kit and lease some ~120 cu ft tanks. Anyone have any recommendations from having been there? Also, I don't know much about my area (Northeast Cincinnati) in terms of good welding supply places, so can anyone point me in the direction of a good supply shop? I'm leaning toward Weiler Welding or Airgas for the tanks at the moment, but I want to make sure it's a friendly shop and one that's willing to be patient with a lot of basic questions.

Tim

Reply to
tim.mecklem
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Portable -vs.- big. Right?

I'd say, if you get a torch cart, the big one is portable and will do jobs that the smaller unit never will.

Rent or buy?

I'd say buy. My bottles can sit in my garage all year long and not cost me a dime. After you've rented that same bottle for a year, you could have bought it.

H> I'm getting into welding as a way to continue the tradition from my

Reply to
jp2express

Thanks for the tips. Do you have to sweet talk a supply shop to refill your owned tanks, or are they pretty good about it? The author of this book spent a good deal of space emphasizing that if you're not careful you can get stuck with tanks nobody will refill if the shop you bought them from goes out or you move. Is that a realistic problem?

Tim

Reply to
tim.mecklem

I guess that could happen - especially if they are the only welding shop for many, many miles, they could be particular.

Personally, I buy my bottles on eBay, and my local welding store refills them for about $14.

Give them a call! Tell them you have some tanks that you want filled and see what they say! The worst they can say is No. Right?

~Joe

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Thanks for the tips. Do you have to sweet talk a supply shop to

Reply to
jp2express

You need to check with the various suppliers as to their policies on owned tanks vs leased. You really need to weigh cost vs convenience.

In my area, one shop did a 5 year lease for around $165 per tank. At the end of 5 years, you paid them another $165. My dealer has a zero dollars per year lease with a $165 deposit. Absolutely no hassles on swaps, certifications, etc. and when I want to get rid of them, I get my deposit back.

My neighbor has owned tanks, he had to br> Thanks for the tips. Do you have to sweet talk a supply shop to

Reply to
RoyJ

In the long run you'll probably end up doing more cutting with the torch set than welding, especially since you'll have the buzz box and MIG. The small, portable set is nearly useless for that so I'd recommend the larger set. You use quite a bit more oxygen than acetylene for cutting so the little tanks don't last long at all.

As for suppliers, the best deal I've found for gas for the hobbiest is Gas Pony which is an outfit that sells through Northern Tool and Equipment and Tractor Supply stores, and maybe some others. Their tank prices are higher but the gas itself is cheaper and they cater to the hobbiest whereas the welding shops I've delt with haven't been bad to deal with but they haven't left me wanting to return either.

If it's the same in your area, Gas Pony will even let you trade in used tanks from other companies for a $19 fee so if you can find used tanks somewhere at a great price you shouldn't have to worry about getting them filled. You just trade them in to Gas Pony and you'll get full tanks that you can trade with them any time. The only other concern is if the tanks you're trading in are out of date they may also want to charge you a testing fee but I'm not sure they still do that since they've added the $19 trade-in fee so talk with them first to be sure.

The last time I bought gas from my local welding shop it was $36 to swap out an 80 CF tank of MIG mix. The next time I needed it I traded it in to Gas Phony at Tractor Supply and actually trade up to a 125 CF tank and it was $24 for the gas and another $25 for the size trade up. It's gone up since then from both sources but Gas Pony is still quite a bit cheaper and for some reason Gas Pony is cheaper through Tractor Supply than through Northern in my area.

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Click on the Location button at the top to see where they sell near you. There are quite a few listed but unfortunately they only give the address and don't bother to tell what store it is. :-/

Best Regards, Keith Marshall snipped-for-privacy@progressivelogic.com

"I'm not grown up enough to be so old!"

Reply to
Keith Marshall

Reply to
jp2express

Thanks for the excellent advice! I didn't know that Tractor Supply had a gas exchange for oxygen and acetylene tanks. They're just up the road from me, and I spoke to them about the exchange and the terms and it sounds much better than my previous conversations with the other guys in the area... plus there are more locations. FWIW, the $19 charge is for the recertification, according to the person I spoke to, so it should be the same whether or not the existing tanks are out of date. The only thing I'm struggling with now is the budget for this "hobby" :) Maybe I can find a decent deal on some used larger tanks for trade-in.

One last question... I understand that there's quite a bit that goes into filling an acetylene tank to keep it stable. Are the tanks safe for transport on their sides if the regulators are disconnected and the tank caps are on? I have a cargo carrier on the back on my SUV that I'd like to use to transport the tanks between my dad's shop (closer and more convenient for my training) and my house (~18 miles), but the only configuration that would work would be on their side unless I borrowed the pickup or stored them on the backseat floor.

Thanks again for the useful information, everyone.

Tim

Reply to
tim.mecklem

Acetylene is dissolved in acetone for storage , it becomes unstable when alone under pressure . My understanding is that there is some sort of filler in the tank , and acetylene bottles probably shouldn't be laid on their side . I have laid my small ("b" size) tanks down for transport for short distances(3-5 miles), but make sure it's been standing upright for a while before use . I think as long as you give it time to settle it'll be alright . Do remember that this advice is worth just what it cost you ...

Reply to
Snag

- " snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com" - wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com:

Acetylene tanks have a porous matrix inside. I always think of it as coral, but I don't know the correct term. They are also filled with acetone. Before use they're, technically, supposed to be upright for a couple of hours after being on their side.

Acetylene tanks, top and bottom, have *safety* plugs. Set to release at the boiling point of water, 212F.

I'm sure others here could give you the exact requirements.

I think that they're supposed to have the caps on for almost any transport.

Reply to
Sano

Thanks again for the additional information. All I have been able to find in my own research is that they should not be operated any way but upright to keep acetone from leaking out, potentially damaging the regulator and causing the acetylene to become unstable in the tank. I haven't seen anything that seems to indicate that transporting it sideways is a *good* or recommendable idea, so I'll stay away from that until I know more about it. Transporting them upright in the backseat should do fine with the windows down for now.

Tim

innews: snipped-for-privacy@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com:

Reply to
tim.mecklem

I work for Uncle Sam, so I have absolutely no idea what MAPP gas costs, but it may be worth your while. I do know that it is much safer than acetylene, while offering damn near the same BTUs. Acetylene is almost extinct in PSNS, but we use more MAPP than you would believe.

Reply to
TinLizziedl

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Reply to
RoyJ

This is very true. Even in normal traffic, a large cylinder will beat the hell out of the bed of a pickup. I had one get loose from the tiedowns in my F150 and in 10 miles of paved road, suburban traffic, it made a pretty good mess of the bed.

Bob

Reply to
BobH

Reply to
RoyJ

Some gas suppliers will not load cylinders into an enclosed vehicle and require you to sign a release form if you load them into one yourself.

Don Young

Reply to
Don Young

Roy, I'm on the west coast. First San Francisco Bay Area and now Oregon. I've owned my tanks since I was 14 years old. I've walked into probably 12-15 different welding supply places in the last 50 years and nobody ever made me wait to refill my tanks. They simply roll out a full tank and trade me. Never a question asked. Well, yes, I sometimes have the same question. "Is the tank you are giving me an 'ownership' tank"? They all explain the stampings on the neck which I still don't understand. It goes something like "If it has somebody's name on it (Bob's machine shop) then it's yours and refillable". Very confusing but it has worked for 5 decades. Obviously from the above posts practices vary around the country.

Ivan Vegvary

Reply to
Ivan Vegvary

You have received much good information in this thread but I suggest that you do a careful economic analysis of the total cost of ownership/availability of the OA process.

As you are aware, the issue of ownership vs. leasing of bottles can be very variable and it is possible to lose your investment if your supplier goes out of business or if there is any question of the real ownership of a bottle after you have exchanged it for one you actually owned as the exchanged bottle will be stamped as property of someone else than you and your actual bottle will be long gone.

The cost of the gas itself is reasonably constant but the filling, depot and shipping fees are usually per bottle which makes the cost per unit of gas MUCH higher for smaller bottles.

Acetylene is a VERY dangerous and increasingly expensive gas and your insurance company may not like or allow its use under your coverage. We are coming up on the winter season again and will soon hear about someone else killed while trying to thaw a frozen lock on a tool box containing a torch that has leaked acetylene gas inside.

For cutting thinner material oxy-propane is cheaper and does a nicer cleaner job and can be used for brazing but is not suitable for torch welding. Propane is safer and more easily obtained and while the gas is much cheaper you will use more oxygen.

The point of this ramble is to suggest that there are alternatives and in particular I suggest that you investigate investing in a small plasma cutting system as it is of a similar or slightly higher initial cost for new equipment, but its cost of operation is much lower and it makes much nicer and more distortion free cuts in material up to ~ 1/2" thickness.

Good luck, YMMV

Reply to
Private

It seems to vary by region and the makeup of the dealers in that area.

A couple m>> You need to check with the various suppliers as to their policies on owned

Reply to
RoyJ

Can you weld with Propane? We only have LPG here and it works well for cutting or brazing but you can't weld steel with it as about the time the puddle begins to form the torch goes BANG and the fire goes out.

Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:displayed e-mail address is a spam trap)

Reply to
Bruce in Bangkok

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