Generator?

I've given this a few years thought and some action, having found the
power company where I built my shop to be absurdly unreasonable, and
full-on solar to be unworkable (too much $$, too little sun) though I
will have a solar component.

To start with, a 1200 or 1800 (6 or 4 pole generator) diesel, liquid
cooled. When I was misinformed about the cost of getting a connection, I
wasted money on a 3600 RPM air-cooled gasoline welder/generator - big
mistake. Might as well have pissed money into a hole - should have put
it into a miller big D or the like, or a diesel generator and a separate
welder (easier to move in two parts, though you don't get the 100% duty
cycle - but I never weld at 100% duty cycle anyway....)

Two main options - a generator, or one of the diesel-driven
welder-generators. For the nutcase option, look up Listeroid, but I
think on balance that that is a nutcase option - and I looked long and
hard before deciding that.

I settled on a Northern Lights (not Northstar or anything associated
with northern hydrualics) marine generator, 1800 rpm. When connected
(it's not at present) the cooling system will be tied into the heat for
the shop, to double-dip on the money I'm spending on off-road diesel,
aka #2 fuel oil. I got mine used with low hours from someone re-powering
their boat with a bigger one. They seem to be very well-regarded, and
I've corresponded with a guy who runs a pair for sole power in Alaska,
and has gotten 30-40,000 hours between rebuilds on them. Not Chinese
Crap (tm). In summer I'll swap plumbing to a radiator (the sort of thing
you'd get built-in with a "land" unit, but marine units are easier to
find used for this brand), but also in summer I'll have more sun to work
with. Parts availability should be excellent - a big advantage over
chinese crap.

I also have an elderly Kohler gas unit, also liquid-cooled and 1800 rpm,
which I hope to put on a wood-gas or wood-gas and propane diet, but
that's a project that has not come to fruition, though lack of copious
spare time.

For some reason (though I ultimately did not go this route, and they may
be too small for what you want) the towable diesel generators with
lights attached (portable lighting units) usually sell for less than a
similar sized generator, in the used market. I shopped the used market
for quite some time, which is where this became apparent to me.

Central maine diesel is one internet clearinghouse of various diesels,
some really crappy IMHO, some probably OK - such as the Isuzu ones.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:17:37 GMT, Ecnerwal


why not simply pick up a good used Lincoln Ranger 9?  250 amps, AC/DC
multiprocess, can be used for MIG or tig (tig needs a HF box if you want
HF), is pretty economical on gas, can be converted to propane or natural
gas, gives an honest 9000 watts of 230/115.   It Is a 3600 rpm machine
however..shrug.

An SA200 will work just fine for most things including Tig or mig with
the proper adapaters. I think steve said he got one recently.  A big
automotive muffler can be stuck on it and quiet it down a bunch.

That big Miller 55G that is on my To Do list (posted about the frozen
engine) is multi process, AC-DC...not a big genny 115 vt section
though...shrug

Gunner

"They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist..."
Maj. Gen. John Sedgewick, killed by a sniper in 1864 at the battle of
Spotsylvania

BTW, Lincoln Electric says 6,000 watt is the minimum size for that welding
machine.

Steve

If you elect to go with a gasser, have it converted to LPG or Natural Gas
(whichever is available) so that you won't have to fight the battle of
refilling the tank frequently.

While a trailer-based portable gummint-surplus might be your best bet, you
might want to see if you can find a small farm tractor and use a PTO
generator such as the 10KW one that Horible Freight sells. A small diesel
tractor [preferably with a front-end loader and pallet hooks] can have many
other uses, as well!

Go oversized on the genset: a large generator running at 1/4-1/2 load will
use less fuel than a smaller one running flat out. [BTDT]

Found a 9.5kw and 13.5kw today on craigslist.  A little out of the ballpark
at $6500 and $13,500.  I'll shop locally, and put ads on the local AM
station's trade hour, and bet I'll come up with one from someone's cabin.
Or someone's brother-in-law's cabin.  ;-)

Will still see what the power company wants to run a pole line.  When we did
a recent remodel/addition, it was about $7k for a second underground line to
the panel.

Yes, that's what I want to do is run about half staff instead of balls to
the wall all the time.  I wonder what Dr. Watson would do?

Steve

SteveB wrote:

Perhaps a silly question, but why can't you run a subpanel from the
house yourself? Utilities typically want to do a separate meter and
separate service charge for a separate run from the pole. Some won't
even do a separate service on the same residential property.

We maxxed out the panel when we did a casita.  The idiot who built the house
did everything Mickey Mouse, and the panel barely covered the expansion.

Steve

SteveB wrote:

Well, upgrading the house service and installing a new main panel,
making the existing one a sub, and then running another sub in the shop
yourself is likely a significantly cheaper way to go.

A new 200A panel is only a couple hundred dollars, 100A breaker to feed
the presumably 100A current main panel is like $25, and if you recently
ran a new U/G feed to the house from the pole, I've sure it's already
sized for a 200A service. A new 200A meter socket if needed is under
$100.

Give us more details on what you have now, distances, etc. and we can
probably give you a much better plan of attack.

My friend, who wired the casita is a master union electrician with 32 years
of experience.  The original panel is 100 amp.  The distance from the pole
to the container is at least 100'.  I'm talking a little in the dark here,
as I have just about decided that what I want is a generator instead of
running a new service over there.  But I'll wait until I talk to him.

Steve

SteveB wrote:

My shop is 80' from the house, or about 100' of wire. I had no problem
running a 125A sub to my shop and upgrading to a better 200A panel in
the house.

It started with a crappy 200A main lug Stab-Loc panel in the house and a
QO but hopelessly inadequate 30A 6 slot panel in the shop.

http://wpnet.us/Power/index.htm

<SNIP>

 Perhaps a silly question, but why can't you run a subpanel from the
 house yourself? Utilities typically want to do a separate meter and
 separate service charge for a separate run from the pole. Some won't
 even do a separate service on the same residential property.
****************
I go along with Pete.
Probably 99 percent of the time a power company runs a household 220V feed
they put in wire for 200 amps.  So I'm betting your house has the line
hardware for 200 amp service.  You just need a 200 amp panel, and can go
from there.
You may not even need a sub-panel at the main box at your house,  as long as
the garage feed in the main has its separate breakers.  You would want a
sub-panel in your garage though.

wrote:


I do this all the time in industrial applications. Its easy, and there
are good used 125 amp panels available for only a few bucks if you look
for one.  100ft, not a problem.

Gunner

"They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist..."
Maj. Gen. John Sedgewick, killed by a sniper in 1864 at the battle of
Spotsylvania

I see IR brand ones around here during and after Hurricanes.
The units power several rental houses.  They are large cubes
that are towed behind trucks.

Many rental places have them for ranch/lake lot/hunting lodge/etc... use.

Check a rental for a list.

Martin

SteveB wrote:

SteveB wrote:

No you don't!

They're
  - expensive to buy
  - expensive to run (try figuring the kwh cost)
  - noisy !!!
  - require maintenance

As Pete has advocated the best solution is a sub panel.  It CAN be done.
  The cost will be MUCH less than that of a genny, with none of the
disadvantages.

Bob

Bob Engelhardt wrote:

I agree with Pete and Bob E on the generator. I had a ~12KW military
surplus genset that had an inline 4 cylinder engine that looked like a
Jeep engine. I had the generator and a Dialarc 250 on a trailer. The
generator made so much noise, it was a miserable thing to use. It burned
about 3 gallons of gasoline/hour.

With a fixed installation and the generator in a distant building, the
noise could be dealt with, but it would still have the fuel cost and the
maintenance.

Good Luck,
BobH

Bob Engelhardt wrote:

Yes, this is absolutely true.  The ONLY sane
reason to use a generator is for portable power,
or for outages, or the case where mains power is
MILES away.  People used generators years ago,
when gas was under a $, and it was an awfully
expensive way to power a site.  Now, it is totally
insane.  Figure it out -- electricity is available
across most of the US under $0.10 a KWH.  A really
good generator (like a big 1200 RPM Diesel) will
probably get you down to about $0.50 a KWH for
fuel cost ALONE.  And, that will be a VERY
expensive machine to purchase, and require
maintenance JUST when you really don't want to
deal with it.

Figure an average 5 KW draw, using the welder
part-time, but having lights and other gear on a
lot of the time your are out there.  I don't know
the level of this shop, are we talking about 8
hours a day or just 4 hours a weekend?  Assuming
the 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, that's 8 * 5 *
50 = 2000 hours a year.  $0.10 gives $200 a year
electric bill.  $0.50 = $1000 a year.  Even if you
run up a couple thousand $ in cable, panels and
labor to install, it will pay for itself in 2
years!  No more noise, exhaust fumes, oil changes
in the middle of the winter, going to fetch
fuel......   OH, yeah, I FORGOT to factor in the
several thousand $ cost of the GENERATOR!

If mains power is just a couple hundred FEET away,
I can't believe you'd even CONSIDER a generator.

I don't think you even need to involve the utility
in this.  A contractor should be able to trench in
a feed off your house panel (with sutiable
adjustments to the panel in the house).  Check the
drop from the pole to make sure it is good for the
200 A, but unless it is totally antique, it almost
certainly is.  The utility won't charge much to
upgrade that and your meter if you need more amps,
as they'll be selling you more KWH.

Jon

Actually the nationwide average as of August was $0.12/KWH
and in places like California, it can be as high as $0.20/KWH.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/mer/pdf/pages/sec9_14.pdf

scott

Scott Lurndal wrote:

I've calculated the generation cost for a mid sized diesel genset a few
times and each time I've found that the fuel cost per KWH pretty well
matched the current utility cost per KWH, with the critical caveat that
you had to be running the generator consistently at full rated load. Any
time you are not running full load your cost per KWH goes up
drastically. This of course also doesn't factor in maintenance parts
like oil and filters.

If you can provide propane or natural gas, you could get a 'standby' unit
at Home Depot or Lowe's - those that switch on the house after a blackout
and run until the power comes back on.   They are used to run long times.
They are like an Icebox layed over on the side.

That might be a good idea if gas is available.

Martin

SteveB wrote: