How many rod ovens does a poor fool need?

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Gentlemen,

I just purchased a Phoenix Model 1 rod oven.  Supposed to be good for
50 pounds of rod up to 18" long.  It's maximum temperature is 300 deg.
F and minimum is 100 deg. F.

Since I have probably 100 pounds of different rods which have gone
soggy this is a major step forward for me.

However, I seek your collective sagacious guidance, to-wit, ergo sum:

By noodling around in google I got the impression that mere mortal
rod, such as 6010 and 6011, should not be heated to more than about
150 degrees, and that super rod, aka 7018, should not be stored at
less than 250 degrees.

This leads me to beg an answer for an obvious question:

Can the various rods peacefully co-exist ("can't we all just get
along"?) in the same tub?

Or am I gonna have to spring for yet another oven?

I've had so much rod go bad that I've taken to buying it one pound at
a time.

As a secondary question would somebody refresh my brain as to how long
to bake 6011 and 6013 and at what temperature to refresh it?

I believe I remember correctly that 7018 is effectively beyond the
reach of this remedy due to the prolonged time required at elevated
temperature?

If the consensus is I need another rod oven maybe I'll get a ten
pounder for the 7018 and not keep more than its contents on hand.

Thanks to all.

Vernon

Re: How many rod ovens does a poor fool need?

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Vernon:

It is impossible for a man to have too many knives, guns, fishing poles, or
rod ovens.

HTH

Steve



Re: How many rod ovens does a poor fool need?

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6010, 6011, 6013, 7014, and 7024 are never stored in an oven.

6010 actually likes to be wet when used.
A lot of guys keep a water buckt handy and soak the rod for a few
minutes before use.

Most rod is perfectly happy to just be stored in an airtight can.
US Army ammo cans work really well for this.

7018 has to be kept dry at all times.
If it is rusty, throw it away.

Pull out a test rod and break off the flux.
If there is no rust underneath the flux then you are fine.

If it is not rusty and the flux is solid, then bake it for a few days.

I keep my 7018 stored in an airtight ammo can.
I pull it out and bake it once a month.





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Re: How many rod ovens does a poor fool need?
snipped-for-privacy@tucklings.com (Vernon Tuck) wrote in

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Hello Vernon,
Store your 7018 electrodes in the oven,
since you have one, you might as will make use of it.
Heat tomb em' <g>
Cut yourself some lengths of PVC pipe to the electrode lengths you use
in the other electrode types you like to make use of. I have several 2",
1", and 3/4" PVC pipes that I have put the PVC end caps on the ends to
make storage containers. I can carry these around with me in my back
pocket, lay them where I'm working, etc. The key is to keep electrodes
sealed from the air. Do not leave the containers open for longer than it
takes to remove what you need to use in the moment. You can make larger
sized ones for storing larger volumes. "Hone" the ends of the pipe with
a light grit sandpaper, this allows for a better seal and easier removal
of the PVC pipe caps. 6011/6010 electrodes like a little moister, I
think it's something like 3-5%. Bottom line, just seal them in a
container of this type when removing them from the factory container. If
you do so, all will be good. You can do the same with the other SMAW
electrodes as will. Just remember you do not want to leave electrodes
exposed, as they will pick up moister from the "air". If they are sealed
off from it, your ok. Your not going to be welding on any nuclear vessels
soon, right? <g> This will certainly suffice then. Take care.

Kruppt

Re: How many rod ovens does a poor fool need?
How about doing the salt shaker trick - put some dry rice in the
tubes.  The rice is hydroscopic and will be the host of moisture if
any gets in.  Check rice when refilling and replace if moist.

Martin
--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer snipped-for-privacy@pacbell.net
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Re: How many rod ovens does a poor fool need?

You can buy big, like 5lb boxes of silica sand at a pet store.
It's the same stuff that comes in electronics boxes in those little packets
that say "Silica Gel DO NOT EAT"
It absorbs a heck of a lot more moisture than rice and when it gets old,
you toss it in the microwave for a couple minutes and it's good to use
again.

It's sold as "Silica cat litter" and looks like road salt....not the grey
clay stuff. It usually comes in a clear plastic jug...bout $10 cdn for 5
lbs.

probably wouldn't want it loose with your rods, but you could fill a
couple film canisters or something and poke holes in the lids.
Drop them in you rod tubes, and seal them up.

Paul

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 05:56:27 +0000, Eastburn wrote:

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Re: How many rod ovens does a poor fool need?

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Paul & Easton,

I guess you guys are addressing the moister content that would be captured
in the container itself, upon opening and closing the container. I think
your thoughts in these regards are a thoughtful one. The only place I see
upon using this idea, that may create a problem, is the cellulose fluxed
rods (6011/6010, etc.), where it may "take away" the moister that is needed
in these rods for optimum "performance", as it may draw off the needed
moister in these type rods.(don't know myself, haven't tried it, just
making an observation)
If these type of rods are either of poor quality, or the moister content is
not right, you can tell fairly easily by striking up an arc with the rod.
There should be a slight convex to the electrode end, and the flux should
be tight right up to the edge of the balled end. If there is any chipping,
or the electrode is bared up past the edge of the convex ball much, or the
flux is fraying/swelled out on the end, something is wrong in these
regards. Also if the flux is very brittle at the end. Some peoples
aggravation, in striking an arc with these rods can many times be related
to this problem.(improper moister content) If the flux is missing or frayed
away at the electrode end, your essentially trying to strike an arc with a
"bare" piece of wire.
The proper moister content has a large play in these regards in the
cellulose type elecrodes. These electrodes if the moister content is right,
can be bent/bowed/radiused
to weld in confined areas etc. If the moister content is not right, the
flux will break away when trying to do this.

Kruppt




Re: How many rod ovens does a poor fool need?
I beg to differ on the Silica Sand is equal to Silica Gel.
Sand is pure SiO2 and doesn't have other complex rocks like Granite
crushed up....
The gel is a dry and hydroscopic 'jelly'.  The Gel is typically round
but can be crushed.

I have bags of both kind.  The sand is heavy stuff.  The gel is like
Jell-O!

Desiccare, Inc  of Richland Mississippi is one maker - MIL-D-3464 Type I
& II
Once moist, reactivate 16 hours at 245 F

Nomenclature: Desiccant, activated gagged, packaging use and static
dehumidification.

HUMI DRI is another brand name - (ROC IIRC).

Martin
--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer snipped-for-privacy@pacbell.net
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Re: How many rod ovens does a poor fool need?

Then excuse my misuse of the term "sand". The stuff I was referring to
then I suppose, is silica gel, specifically sold as a
dessicant/hydroscopic media....it's sole intent, as marketed, is to absorb cat
urine. I, and several aquaintances use jugs of the (clean) stuff in chest
freezers to prevent condensation when the freezer is run above freezing
(as a kegerator.) It does the job VERY well.

Cheers,
Paul

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 05:45:30 +0000, Eastburn wrote:

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Re: How many rod ovens does a poor fool need?
Right -

It is often used to help insure that a sealed package (of IC's and
other)
keep moisture free as if there is any left it goes to the gel.

The Military uses it for long term storage in wax covered foil covered
packs.

Martin
--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer snipped-for-privacy@pacbell.net
We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.
Re: How many rod ovens does a poor fool need?
FYI
The "official" listing of the electrode storage and drying
requirements, as taken from the AWS specification A5.1 ("Specification
for Carbon Steel Electrodes for Shielded Metal Arc Welding", Table A2
in the appendix).  This information is extracted from this reference
but is not an exact copy since I did not want to take the extra time
to reproduce the table.  I also left out some electrode types that are
not commonly used.

E6010 and E6011 (i.e. cellulosic types):
Store at ambient temperature, holding ovens are not recommended,
drying is not recommended

E6012, E6013, E7014, E7024:
Store at 60-100 deg F with maximum 50% relative humidity, holding oven
to be 20-40 deg F above ambient temperature, drying can be done at 1
hour at 275 deg F

E7016, E7018 (i.e. low hydrogen types):
Storage in ambient conditions is NOT recommended, holding oven should
be 50-250 deg F above ambient, drying can be done at 1-2 hours at
500-800 deg F.


My additional comments are as follows:
Ernie and others are correct about the E6010 (cellulosic) electrodes.
They are designed to have some moisture in the flux coating, typically
about 5%.  The moisture (i.e. water) is what gives these electrodes
their deep penetration characteristic.  The water molecules
disassociate in the arc producing hydrogen.  The hydrogen alters the
arc physics so that the arc column constricts, thus, increasing the
energy density which produces the increased penetration.  You can't
see the arc physics effects going on but you can see the increased
penetration by the arc digging into the base metal.

The E7018 low hydrogen electrodes are designed to have extremely low
moisture content (it can vary but it is typically 0.2% or less out of
the manufacturers can or out of the drying oven).  The low hydrogen
characteristic is desired because of weld cracking considerations.
(Yes, this type of hydrogen delayed cracking does actually happen, but
normally on thicker material and higher strength material.)  However,
for "hobby shop" welding, this type of cracking is not normally a
problem.  Without proper storage (i.e. holding oven), the E7018
electrodes will still run OK, they just won't be "low hydrogen"
anymore.  Eventually, the flux coating can absorb so much moisture
that it begins to degrade, but this can be a long time (months rather
than days or weeks).

Let me know if anyone has questions on other electrode types (low
alloy or stainless steel).

Re: How many rod ovens does a poor fool need?
Tom Doody wrote:
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Hi all

Your info sounds spot-on, as best as I can say given my lack of real
in-depth experience.

I have worked on welding and welding consumables in scientific
development.

This is what I believe to be the case:

Of "stick" welding, only basics can be low hydrogen, as cellulosics
and rutiles as stick-welding rods need moisture.

The same doesn't apply to flux-cored-wire MIG, because the shielding
gas shields and the flux fluxes.  The flux does its electric stuff,
alloying / microstructural refinement and weld-pool control.  Basic
and rutile FCW can be / are both low hydrogen.  There's no "cellulosic
FCW" that I have ever heard of.  It would be a bit irrational.  You
can switch to uphill welding techniques using rutile FCW where flux
weld-pool control and good properties allows you to lay very full
beads of beautiful shape and smoothness with easy slag detachment, so
you save time on not having to dress the welds - and not having to
preheat anything like as much (if at all?) due to low hydrogen.

cellulosics
-----------

They need some moisture content.  I gather cellulosics (xx10's) come
in a metal tin *to keep the moisture in*.  On a welding site such as
pipeline welding you would use-up the rods quickly so retention of the
water after opening the tin is not usually an issue in commercial
practice.  Hydrogen is provided by the cellulose, but more is better
if you have decided to go down this route of having a very penetrative
welding rod giving a fast-freezing weld, at the cost of having to deal
with avoidance-of-hydrogen-cracking issues in serious applications
like 1inch/25mm thick pipes a metre in diameter, or the like.
Cellulosics are only encountered as "stick"/SMA/MMA welding rods.

BTW - you can *hear* the "arc physics" at work.  Compared to the
gentle cracking of basics and the moderate hiss of rutiles,
cellulosics sound like they should generate enough jet thrust to blast
you backwards (they don't do anything of the kind, of course - it's
just the sound).  Plus the arc voltage goes higher, so you get more
heat for the same current.  70A on a 2.5mm cellulosic would be quite
penetrative indeed, where 70A on a 2.5mm rutile would make for quite
gentle welding.


rutiles
-------

They don't generate (much of?) a shielding gas, so need moisture in
the flux.  Some hydrogen is much much much preferable to nitrogen
from the atmosphere getting into the weld and producing very brittle
welds.


basics
------

They shield by the dissociation of calcium carbonate in the flux into
calcium oxide and carbon dioxide - so they do develop a shield of CO2
gas and don't need moisture in the slag.  The ingredients of the flux
are very thermally stable so you go right ahead and bake the moisture
/ hydrogen level down to a very low level indeed.  You can weld thick
sections of strong steel with manageable to zero preheat.  Mechanical
properties are good


* additional point - mech. properties*

rutile stick gives inclusions which look the size of dinner plates
when you look down a microscope.  They'd act as dangerous
stress-raisers if the weld metal were strong, so you deliberately
leave it with a very low strength and consequently easy ductility.

The same doesn't apply to rutile FCW, and I can't remember why, hard
as I try.  It gives very fine inclusions which are actually
microstructurally useful for pinning grain-size to a fine (tough) size
plus triggers nucleation of tough very fine intragranular
microstructures.  So you can have a high strength weld metal.  Strong
and adequately tough at Arctic temperatures.

So rutile stick and rutile FCW-MIG are very different creatures.


Helpful???


Richard Smith


Re: How many rod ovens does a poor fool need?


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Diffusable Hydrogen in the weld metal of a multiple pass weld on heavy wall
pipe, typically done with 70+, an 8010 rod, is really pretty low. Because of
diffusion during the multiple pass procedure. Similar to the hydrogen level
of a single bead of a  LoHi rod. Still more than if the weld was made with
LoHi, but quite low nonetheless.

JTMcC.


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