Talking me into MIG - I thought TIG ?? Safe on my own??

[snip]

TIG is cool. It is expensive to set up though. I was pretty set on TIG because of its versatility. For me that meant the ability to make sanitary stainless welds for brewing equipment. I still don't have TIG yet though...

The vast majority of stuff I weld is mild steel for practical weldments around the house and shop (furniture, shelves, welding carts, machine bases, etc.) For these sorts of things, MIG rules because it is quick. Proper machine setup is critical to getting strong welds though.

Before I had MIG, I had oxy/acetylene. This worked great, but the process is much slower, and gas is not cheap--especially when welding the 1/4" mild that I was using for a lot of stuff. TIG is very analagous to oxy/acet as far as being slow. I wanted faster production, so I bought a 170 amp MIG box.

Since it sounds like you already have a gas rig, why not get some R45 rod and start making some fusion welds in 1/8" mild steel coupons? Any practice with gas will help when you learn other processes.

You need to figure out what you want to weld in order to pick the best welder.

Get some books. Do a google search here on TIG and MIG. You'll be busy for a while reading! Also understand that if you get into welding, you don't just need a welder(s)--you'll need grinders, saws, etc.

You could also visit the local school and pester the instructor to see if he or she would offer a night class for folks like you. Or you could offer to pay for some lessons. A few hours with a pro is worth it for the skills you'll learn. Practice, practice...

Jeff Dantzler Seattle, WA

Thanks for the words, and others, please keep coming with your opinions!

You said, "get R45 rod and start making some fusion welds in 1/8" mild steel coupons?" - I assume you mean steel welding rods, and just start doing some welds on small pieces, because I said I was just brazing .. correct? Anyways, I have some of both (rods and 1/8), and that is an excellent idea.

and from your words...sounds like you agree for the tranisition; i.e. go to MIG.

Jeff

Well The store guy was right in pushing towards a MIG, as far as ease of learning and practicality for steel. If you get at least a small 220v MIG you can even handle aluminum. MIG works on stainless steel, but it is not as clean as TIG.

The best value in the TIG world right now is the Thernal Arc Prowave

185TSW TIG / Stick machine, at around $1550. It comes with everything except a gas bottle. It is tiny, well designed and versatile. My favorite machine in this calss is the Miller Dynasty 200DX but you will be more like $2500 with the machine and other bits. You can accomplish a lot of your basic assembly stuff with stick welding and save TIG for the aluminum and stainless steel.

Eventually you will likely end up with a small MIG as well.

A small MIG, an oxy-acet torch rig, a small TIG, and you are pretty much able to tackle anything.

and what machine would be your recommendation for MIG?? Assume that Aluminum will be a rarity.

Also, so far, neither of you have commented on my just "Plug-and-playing". If I go MIG... which sounds like the consensus so far, how do I know about current and flow rates, etc. Will the manuals give me enough information?

I made myself a steel table for welding ...actual had a shop table .. and had a supplier cut me a 3/16 mild steel top for it. So I assume with that, and electricity (and of course eye and hand protection) ... I assume I'll be fairly "Good to go" - but - some things you take for granted (I'm sure), are still unknown to me... like do I want to clip the negative clamp to the workpiece, or the table? ... does it matter?

Appreciate the words!

Jeff

Manuals are a good start for settings. Nice thing about practice coupons is that you can put them in a vise and smack them with a big hammer until they break. Try this with different settings. Lower voltage and wire speed will give you "cold" welds that are only on half the joint. This is obvious when you break the coupon. Too hot, and you get more spatter and may even burn through the workpiece. With MIG, back off from the "too hot" conditions and you should be in the right range. Should sound like frying bacon.

You always want a good connection to ground. Make sure the part you clamp to (table or workpiece) is ground down to bare metal (no rust, grease, scale, paint, etc.) If you ground to the table make sure the top is clean. I usually ground the workpiece since my "table" is often a sheet of 3/4" MDF. If you have trouble getting the arc to start or stub out at a setting that was working before you moved the ground clamp, check your ground. Grounding is especially important with the smaller MIG machines.

Jeff Dantzler

Maybe you could do just like I did a bit over a year ago: start with a not too expensive stick welder and learn by trying. If you don't try to learn something too thin, it is actually relatively easy.

One minute welding course:

-don't try with anything thinner than 2mm

-40 A per mm

-electrode thickness: about metal thickness, thinner is easier.

-check what's written on the electrode package.

-clean pieces are easier to weld.

One minute buying course:

-try to find a small cheap inverter

-ask what amperage the machine can output 100% and 60% of the time, anything higher is not usable

-get an autoswitching mask (even a cheapo)

One minute security course:

-welding is hot

-UV rays from the arc give you bad, serious sunburns

-electric shocks are actually rare, but try to keep everything dry.

As much as I love TIG, stick is actually more practical than TIG for steel, unless the pieces are too thin.

Well, I've gotten several responses, from the group, and directly.

Sounds like MIG is the consensus... Looking at eBay... I could go with a "High-end" Mig, like MILLERMATIC 210 MIG WELDER W/3035 SPOOLGUN FREE SHIPPING TO YOUR DOOR for $1683 or a more entry level MILLERMATIC 210 MIG WELDER PACKAGE for $1187..

I think, I'll rule of the 110 machine Miller 175...

So, what do you think guys?

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Jeff, I live on the other side of Raleigh, and I know what you mean about finding an Adult Ed class. I looked for a long time, but all I could ever find was the 1-2 year curriculum classes ... until this fall. Wake Tech (the one south of Raleigh, on 401) finally offered a continuing ed welding class this fall, on Friday nights, and I have been taking the class. It has been well worth the $60 tuition, largely for the opportunity to practice using someone else's consumables, but also for the help to know when I am doing things right, plus some instruction in various methods. I will try to remember to ask the instructor if/when they will offer the class again, but it will be a couple of weeks before I get back to the class due to some conflicts in my schedule.

Actually, though, I had learned to weld prior to taking the class. I bought a small stick welder, got about 10 minutes of instruction from a friend, and did a lot of practicing. I learned a few bad habits, which the class has helped me correct, but at the same time I have found myself well ahead of the game as I have taken the class, both because of the prior practice, and because of extensively reading this newsgroup.

I disagree with the prevailing opinion that you have been getting. I would personally go the stick/TIG route, rather than the MIG. Yes, MIG is fast and easy (once you get the settings right). If you really want a MIG machine, I would recommend a 175 amp Miller or Lincoln, since you are willing to wire for 220. On the other hand, for a good bit less money, you could buy a new (or for a lot less money, a used) stick welder; if you get an AC/DC machine, you can add some TIG capability down the road. Or, as you have already discussed, you could spend somewhat more money and get a machine that is ready to handle TIG and stick.

If most of what you are going to do is around-the-shop projects, a basic stick machine may be all you ever need, but then again so would a basic MIG machine. If you plan to do projects involving heavier (thicker) materials, say 1/4" and up, you will get more bang for your buck with stick.

Whichever way you go, I think you will ultimately be a whole lot happier if you can find someone to look over your shoulder, even if only for five or ten minutes. Once you get going, and know what to look for, you can practice, practice, practice ...

Miller Challenger 175 or Lincoln SP175. Both are 220 volt small machines.

All you do is follow the chart on the inside of the door. You might adjust a bit up or down, but the chart gives you a starting point

Either. Doesn't matter.

Some guys imbed rails in their floor and ground everything to them.

MIG is supposed to be easier to use, but the consensus is that it is relatively easy to make beautiful joints with MIG that are weak. MIG is fast and shines in long welds and thin pieces. It is the preferred method for automotive bodywork.

Stick is much cheaper than MIG or TIG, more difficult to use, tends to give rather ugly welds but they usually are quite strong. It is less sensitive to contamination and is the preferred method for more heavy steal. I suggested stick because of its price and the projects you gave.

TIG is close in its handling to Oxy-Acetylene, roughly as expensive as MIG for steel and $1000 more for aluminium and is the most versatile of all welding methods. It is slow. TIG machines can also do stick.

For your other question: you clamp the negative lead where you'll have good contact with the workpiece, preferably close to your weld area.

If you don't have a knowledgable buddy or a local course, perhaps you might consider a local commercial welding shop. Sometimes it is possible to make an arrangement with the shop owner or an employee to give you a tutorial or two. If you found a shop willing to do this, you'd likely need to pay the shop rate but if the instruction was decent, it may be well worth the price.

My 2c on which machines: begin, if you can afford the price, with a stick/tig machine. Often a person begins to weld with a few ideas of what they want to make. As the person gets deeper into various projects, the possibilities expand. I.e., the more you weld, the new ideas you get that you had not previously thought of. If that happens to you, then stick/tig is the best starter machine (yeah, but you will want a mig machine in the future too).

Ciao, David

The Millermatic 210 will run flux-cored wires, which are quite structuraly sound. You can have hard wire for the thin stuff and flux-core for the thick stuff. If you get the spoolgun, aluminum is now in the picture.

More difficult to learn, sure. Not that hard if you are willing to practice, and the welds can be quite beautiful.

If you are hungry for knowlege get a used ac/dc tig and go to half price books and find some old instructional books on welding.Teach yourself to stick weld with it to get familiar with the machine. Then move to tig. Read the newsgroup, ask questions, and practice. If you really want to get to know welding you need to experience the smell, sound, frustration and triumph stick welding provides. I believe only tig welding will "show" you a clear defination of the puddle. A mig will be fun to run and they have their use but I always will think the more challenges presented, the more to be learned.

Jeff, I too live in Wake County, on the south end near Wake Tech. I've tried to follow their schedule, but never can find anything about continuing ed classes in their schedules or online. I was thinking of contacting the guys at National, find out what kind of resource they would be. I have no real experience, other than helping a couple of friends and getting some help from one of the other posters here who happens to live south of me.

How were the guys at National? Any thoughts on their use as a resource?

thanks for the info

for what it is worth, I never had a mig welder for years - just a humungus AC arc welder, oxy set and (later on) a small 140A DC welder with a scratch start tig handpiece. I now have a 200A mig, but although it is useful (especially for tacking or production work), it is the oen I would sell first. It depends on what you are making, but IMO, a good AC/DC tig set would do most things you want Geoffm

Jeff, I finally was able to talk with the instructor. They will be offering the class again this spring, and the same instructor will be teaching it. It will be offered from 6-10pm on Friday nights. If you can get to the Wake Tech campus on 401 south of Raleigh, I highly recommend it!