why are cheap anvils no good



Cool! :)

I ended up with two flames side by side, with the blade or spring in between, for more even heat in heat treating.

Ooooo... I started out with 1" and found it too small. :/
One thing about electric blower types, they are cheap and easy to modify and still work as good as the last design. ;)

Sure enough. :) Stoichiometry.
I taught myself that in the 9th grade in the quest to make better firecrackers and bottle rockets. Didn't know what it was called until later tho. ;)

Is the T-Rex burner naturally aspirated?
A guy could spend a year making his own naturally aspirated burner set up and still not have it as good as a damn store bought. :( (??)

How much $ are they?

Me neither! It's just that files along with a spark test and a few books has been enough, at least so far. ;)

There's four basic types of stainless steel, who knows which one you had? ;)

As good a name for it as any. ;)

Cool! :)
Can you afford to throw in a foot of 52100? ;) Just posibly the best dangged knife steel a forger can get (easily) and work it too. :) 50100-B (W7) would be right in there too, but too hard to come by. :/
For forge-welded and multi-folded knife steel... What do you guys think of files (1.22% carbon steel) sandwiched in between layers of 8670-modified, non-carbide-tipped throw-away circular saw blades? :)
Alvin in AZ
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When I treated that rail clip knife we used my forge chamber and my buddy's forced air burner. Started out real low and brought it up a bit at a time till we hit the nonmagnetic. My chamber has a tubular, oh... 10 inch by 24 inch interior. With the burner at one end and the knife in the other and a gradual ramp in the heat, you couldn't have asked for a more even heat on the steel.

Serious? How big is the chamber? I thought you were into smaller steel?

Certainly easier to build than the forced air.

The practice of Stoicism? ;)

http://www.hybridburners.com This is what I'm talkin' about! Ron Riel gives them high praise and they claim to out perform anything you can make from hardware store parts. With naturally aspirated burners and my forge and anvil setup I could load the car up in no time flat and take it anywhere.

That India blade could have been any combination of Stainless and any other metal that is reasonably forge weldable. As I said, it was delaminating and I wouldn't be surprised if the Stainless was just a thin outer layer

I'll keep it in mind. I'm assuming this stuff (52100) is deep hardening?
BTW, That book you recommended? Metallurgy Theory and Practice by Allen, Dell K. I decided to check on it at Amazon and was able to pick it up for - get this - $3.32! Six bucks after shipping and handling but at at that rate I won't sweat it even if it's falling apart. Still waiting for it to arrive though... I appreciate the tip. Helps to know what your looking for.
GA
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Did you notice a shadowy look to the center, a funny not-so-even heating look to it, just as it was going non-magnetic?

Part of it was the smaller it is the harder it is to control the mixture. The other part at the time, was I was using the cheap 75c fire bricks that suck up heat like crazy. After switching to 1+1/2" pipe the whole works workeed better.
Since then I put a regulator on the propane bottle, before I was using a 1/4" needle valve, and got a stack of the lightest insulated fire bricks and made a sliding cover for the blower. Before I was using a light dimmer, since the motor is a "shaded pole" type.
And also I've been working down the size of the "exit" pipes and figured out a pretty good baffle/screen (i forget what it's called) to make a bunch of single flames. Semi-stainless steel screens were picked up at the scrap yard of various size holes etc. They seem to be from the new cars exhaust system. Not expanded metal but sheet metal with round, punched holes.
I cut out a round piece file off the edges at ~60 degree angle and thread it into the street elbow's bell... which is the final exit pipe.
I shoved a washer with large cuts made by an 1/8" cut off wheel inside the 1+1/2" main pipe about 1/3 way between the gas port and the flame end for a mixer. While messing around with it, when the "side outlet elbow" etc was removed, I've had the flame drop back to that "mixer plate". Actually used it that way once when heating for bending a thick hunk of steel.

Sure enough but also want to be able to heat treat a 14" butcher knife someday.

Yep. :) They have varying amounts of Cr for use in ball bearings and races. They vary the Cr according the the ball diameter so they can get it the same hardness all the way to the center (important for fatigue properties) without using any more Cr than needed. 50100 .40-.60% Cr 51100 .90-1.15% Cr 52100 1.30-1.60% Cr All else the same, all three very clean, high quality, electric furnace re-melts... steel that could be clasified as a tool steel but for some reason I don't know, they don't usually refer to it that way. 50100 could be called W5. 52100 could be called L1.
The steel, I have a little bit of, 50100-B is the same as W7 and about the same (but higher quality) as 6195.

Cool! :) You're gonna like it. :)
On my reference books I color the edges of the pages with different colored "highlighter" pens to separate the different chapters then write next to it a note like on my original copy of Metallurgy Theory and Practice I've got- iron-carbon heat alloy+c tool cast Al Ti Cu Ni
Later I was given a hardbound copy a friend found at a secondhand store but haven't used it, it's from back east or something and smells moldy.
Alvin in AZ
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buddy's
time
by 24

and a

on
I've seen that when I did the original treat on this knife but I was using pretty direct heat (had the knife pretty much right at the end of the flame. Later I tested a piece of plain carbon steel and found that the heat required was way lower than this knife and decided that I over heated it. So, I normalized it a few times later and did the heat treat that I described earlier. As I said, we brought it up really slow and the whole blade came to heat gradually and I didn's see any shadow. What I found out though is that the 5160 has to get a lot hotter than plain carbon to reach non magnetic so the temperture that I went to on the first round was probably fine. I had just done it much faster and with more direct flame. I do think that I got a better hardening on the slow gradual heat up though. Gut thing. Nothing to back it up with.

I'm inclined to say that you don't need anywhere near that size if your chamber is well insulated (and of course not *too* large). I have to think it is desirable to keep the flame well away from the steel so long as you can get the temperature in the chamber up. This is what I have been working toward and for the most part accomplished. My only concern is that the flame on my naturally aspirated burner is still not mixing the fuel as well as it should. Still get a bit of the "yellow salamanders" dancing around in the chamber. Has a lot to do with stray currents from outside the chamber both at the intake and the exhaust/work opening. I am hoping that when I get the T Rex burner I will see a much improved performance.

Hmm. I'm using a needle valve myself. Cheap and gets the job done. I'll do the regulator later when I don't have more immediate concerns for where to spend my money.

When you say "exit pipes" are you referring to the mixing tube and burner nozzle? My buddy with the forced air unit ended up putting a ball of steel wool just behind the gas jet and got an improved mix out of his torch that way. Any obstruction in the mixing tube and forward will work as a flame holder if given a chance.

My buddy took a hex nut the size of the tube diameter and filed noches into the flat sides and then welded it into the end of his mixing tube. Works ok. Gets a bit hot if used for a while.

Now that sounds like fun. I'm thinking of making a set of steak knives for the family (without the stupid serrations). I'd like to do them in carbon steel with a hamon line just for kicks. I got my hands on some "plow steel" from the local Scrap & Steel yard. probably 1060 or 70ish. I'm making a custom camp hatchet for a friend and the scraps will provide enough material for several more knives.

hardening?
Sounds like good all around material.

Allen,
get
I
arrive
Got it on Sat. A hard bound school book. My favorite kind! Good shape too but the guy who owned it before me was neurotic about writing his name all over it. Not that I care. Lots of good information there. Should keep me busy for a while.
GA
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I'm thinking that it'll be harder to see in an alloyed medium carbon steel than in a straight high carbon steel like a file, so might be close to un-noticeable?
If the magnet-method's working for you nothing wrong with that. :)

Yep, after reading about blankets and coatings again, you got that right on the money, IMO. :)
Youv'e come a long way haven't you? (since the weed burner;)

For sure, even in my clunky setup, I've gotten down to two 1" elbows side by side and with the "diffuser" screens, they are pretty small flames and very stable, easy to control the mixture on too.

:)
My 1/4" needle valve and high pressure hose wasn't cheap! ;) It wasn't a complete waste tho, I use that stuff in a homemade bottle tranfer system.
My regulators were cheap... given to me. ;) But they aren't fancy adjustable ones tho.

Burner nozzle... and I've got the word now... diffuser.
The diffuser sort of restricts the flow so the flow speeds up there, right? ;) So it's easier to adjust the "exposive mixture" flow speed to match it's flame/reaction speed. ...and it shortens and spreds out the flame some too.
I put the knife blade way back inside past the flames where the hot gases and glowing walls of the oven heat the metal pretty evenly.

What'd he do to keep it in place?

BTDT! :)
My next step was the square-holed screen off an aircooled VW's oil cooler. :) Last is the stainless steel screen with punched holes. I managed to pick up several different types and tried them out.
Too small of holes, is too small. Too little metal between holes, is too little. Too big of holes, is too big. Etc. ;)

The hamon will be cool as anything. :)
I use a non-serrated steak knife. It pretty much needs resharpening after every steak or pork chop meal. Suggestion- don't leave them extra hard like me and Bear were talking about... they could scratch your plates. No kidding. :)
Mine's an old Robeson with walnut handles that I bought along with some other junk at a yardsale for 10 cents. :)
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/Robeson.jpg
I copied that knife's blade shape in a bunch of other knives. :)
Don't see "flashing.jpg" must have deleted it off the web directory.

Pretty close to "the best to be had" for blacksmith-made knives! :) It's got the Cr in it to protect it and so, an improvement over plain high carbon steel. Good stuff that Cr, when used in small amounts. ;)

It reads good... Dell did a great job. :)
With that knowledge your experimenting will be much more fruitful.
Alvin in AZ
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I'll grant that may be a good enough reason for some folks. I'm not sure what you would do with it that requires more but what do I know. Mine feels like it's about a 'hundred pounds but I never weighed it. The long footprint makes it pretty stable though. Before I got the top flattened I turned it upsidown on some sand and didn't have much problem with it falling over. Works for me. Needs a hardy hole though. I haven't approached that problem yet but it's in the plan.
GA
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On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 06:46:25 -0700, "Greyangel"

Heavy enough to be a pig to make anything out of.
Light enough to be no use as an anvil when you've finished it.
Curved top means yet more work to get it to a usable shape.
Yes, you can make an anvil out of rail. Nice steel for doing it too. But the ratio of useful product / effort isn't great. The best you'll get is a jeweller's or coppersmith's bench anvil, and you need to be a hairy-arsed blacksmith to make it.
Jarkman and I have carved up a little rail. I made an anvil, he turned it over and made tools for the hardie hole. It was a good (and all too rare) excuse to fire up his splendid old power hacksaw, and a reason to buy more disks for the 9" grinder.
http://www.jarkman.co.uk/catalog/forge/anviltools.htm
We also tried to forge the beak of the anvil by drawing it down. That was a failure, as it was simply too big for the gas forge, and a damn nuisance for one person to hold a short length of rail while the striker waled upon it.
--
Smert' spamionam

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But at least we stopped when we'd only knocked a *little* chip off the side of the anvil...
Do you want to bring it over this weekend ? We can try the oxy-propane out on it, see if that'll trim it down.
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