Surface conduction at 60 Hz

I have done it the easy way -through computer modelling. The model used is valid, external to the conductors, for multiple conductors above a ground plane. The assumption in the program is that the charge of a conductor is at its center, which is excellent for the typical distances involved -the distance between the line charge location within the conductor to make it an equipotential surface, and the true center of the conductor is negligable. Corrections can be made but except for special cases such as cables where distances are short, there is no point in doing so. Input information is dimensional data (radii, height above ground plane, spacing, etc) and voltage (instantaneous or rms) of each conductor with respect to ground. There will be a reduction in surface E field and in a short distance from the conductor bundle,-say 2 or 3 bundle radii- the field will be near that of a single conductor of much large radius . Here is a simple case. Single conductor radius 2 cm at height 10m and voltage of 100kv surface field under conductor is 724.+ kV/m and at side it is 723+ kV Two conductors, same size and voltage, spaced 30cm apart field below =453kV/m, inside =418 kV/m and outside 478 kV/m I also see that the charge on each conductor is appreciably lower than that on the single conductor at the same voltage although the total charge is greater. The effective radius of the bundle is about 7.75cm in this case. The ground level field is increased slightly in the bundled case as the field is a bit more uniform. The line capacitance is increased by bundling and the inductance is decreased. The decrease in line inductance is of more importance, in most cases, than the increase in C. Note that in general capacitance is based on the conductor radius while, for inductance, the concept of GMR is considered and this takes into account internal flux linkages. For ACSR, the GMR is measured but it can be calculated different geometries in the absence of magnetic materials.

Reply to
Don Kelly
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No. It is true to all but the most extreme purists of the world who will waste much time and energy on things that are not discernible in the real world. At 60 Hz and much, much higher frequencies, it will take some very expensive equipment to even theorize the still negligible effects of it. People who think like this are of no practical use for such areas as this thread; it's been pretty well pointed out. You sound like the kind who will claim your weight also varies because you go from the first to the second floor of a building; true, but of no use to anyone but an extreme purist or anecdotal collector of trivia, just as your weight "changes" when you walk into a tunnel but don't change your relation to the center of the earth. interesting but useless information to the real world.

Pop

Reply to
Pop

Meaningless questions like this from extremely uninformed people come up all the time.

It doesn't stop well informed, well intentioned people trying to read minds and rushing in with replies. Stop here.

Arthur Holland

Reply to
aholland51

Yeah, right. "Standard Handbook for Electrical Engineers, Ninth Edition" (a really old copy), Tables 13-8 and 13-9 so DC, 25Hz, 50Hz and 60Hz resistances for large cables.

For example, ACRS 900,000 circular mils, 0.115, 0.116, 0.118 and 0.119 ohms per mile per conductor. 3.5% difference may not be anything *you* care about, but some of us work with cables larger than what you work with. The larger cables most definitely do have a difference resistance thanks to skin-effect.

Building transmission lines is considered a 'practical use' by most folks.

daestrom

Reply to
daestrom

He didn't explicitly mention steel clad copper.

But he may be referring to bus-work used in substations. For short runs between circuit-breakers, lightning arrestors, disconnects and other components, you will often see hollow tubing used for the conductors. If the same cross-sectional area of material were in the form of a solid bar, it would have higher resistance owing to the skin effect. By simply reshaping the material into a tube with a larger OD, more material is in the region near the 'skin', providing lower resistance.

(the tube also has more structural strength than a solid bar of the same material cross-section).

daestrom

Reply to
daestrom

I was thinking a bit more about this and have resolved the paradox in my mind.

For a given power capacity of a line, the voltage required is going to be proportional to V^2/Zo. By putting multiple conductors in parallel, (per unit length) the inductance is decreased while the capacitance is increased. This lowers the characteristic impedance of the line. Thus, the voltage required to transmit the original power is dropped, and the likelihood of corona is diminished.

Bill

-- Ferme le Bush

Reply to
Salmon Egg

OK, I'll rephrase and say what I meant, politeness aside since you're so thick: Idiots who depart substantially from the post topic in order to attempt a shot at some sort of infamy whether it be good or negative in nature, and which serves to do nothing but confuse and create a sense of information based on misinformation, and under the guise of being a know it all. If you were a fraction of what you say you are, you'd have a lot more things to do than puppet around these groups.

There's no future in discussing anything further here as I consider you to be an intentional moron in this area. Too bad you never went to a real school.

Pop

Reply to
Pop

Previous point proven.

Reply to
Pop

Actually, that's not bad; good going!

Pop

Reply to
Pop

You're right. We shouldn't be answering questions for people unless they already know the answer.

Reply to
Paul Hovnanian P.E.

If you had cared to read what I said. you would have seen that I indicated that for most conductors, the effect is negligable at 60Hz. That doesn't mean that it isn't there, it simply means that it can be ignored. By the way, how does it take expensive equipment to "theorise" this effect? Rudenberg and others did it with pencil, paper and brains in the 20's and

30's.
Reply to
Don Kelly

That too- and it is a fact. Single conductor lines may have a Zo of the order of 350-400 ohms while a 3 or 4 conductor bundle line will have Zo nearer to 250-300 ohms. Of course, spacing and height have an effect as well.

Reduction of corona does occur with bundling but not due to any reduction of voltage at any power level. A voltage is chosen that is economical for the power level and the line design follows from that. Corona is only one concern involved.

A lot of concepts that are extremely useful in communications are of more limited use in power transmission (well under 1/4 wavelength without sectionalization and compensation). One such is impedance matching which is simply not done. --

Don Kelly @shawcross.ca remove the X to answer

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Reply to
Don Kelly

I thought large diameter tubing conductors in HV substations was mostly for corona reduction.

bud--

Reply to
Bud--

Although power lines ordinarily do not run with impedance matched loads, you still have forward and backward traveling wave on the lines. Each of these two waves individually does have voltage/current = the characteristic impedance.

Bill

-- Ferme le Bush

Reply to
Salmon Egg

Nice try fool.

Topic is surface conduction at 60 hz.

It is an issue with transmission line sized conductors. It can change the effective resistance of the conductors by several percent. It is often mitigated by the use of hollow conductors.

ACRS has a steel strands for strength. Because skin effect makes the center area less useful for conducting electricity anyway, ACRS is built with the steel strands in the center.

Your point? You seem to be ranting about things and upset because several others have told you you're wrong, and you just can't handle it.

You'll never know how wrong you are....

daestrom

Reply to
daestrom

It says, if you read it, *by implication*. If you did not consider steel clad copper, then you realize that the larger diameter is created for the strength that the steel core offers. Therefore, since the diameter is already increased for strength, the reason for increasing the diameter

*cannot* be skin effect. In other words, skin effect is negligible. The resistance of the steel core, however, cannot be neglected. That is why it is copper clad. Nothing to do with skin effect.

Of for goodness sake. We are talking about *60 Hz*. We are

*not* talking about antennas and hardline.

Enough, already. Post something real that demonstrates that skin effect often cannot be neglected at 60 Hz.

Reply to
ehsjr

True but not really of use in analysis of a power line's performance. One goes from distributed parameters ("telegrapher's equations") to a lumped model for a given line. Consideration of a standing wave can be used for estimation of mid-line voltages where needed but even this can be avoided by simply using multiple pi sections. For switching and lightning surges, the travelling wave model is used where necessary. Dr. Hermann Dommel did a lot of work on this and the models have become quite sophisticated.

Reply to
Don Kelly

--------------- I just looked at a wire table: There are or were AAC conductors and the AC/DC resistance for a 1 inch diameter conductor(approx) is about 1.02. 2% isn't much. However, for a 2 inch diameter conductor the ratio is 1.31 and I don't think that 30% is negligable. For ACSR Kiwi (44mm diameter) the AC/DC resistance ratio is 1.11 For Drake (28mm diameter) the ratio is 1.01 Compared to all- aluminum conductors- the AC/DC ratio is lower because, even without any skin effect, the current flows mainly in the lower resistivity aluminum.

Of course, none of these conductors are used for house wiring.

The point is that there are situations where 60Hz skin effect does have some significance and there are lots more where it doesn't. It also happens that design for strength or rigidity such as hollow tubes also mitigates skin effect. Bill's comment regarding coil construction in large machines is true- heavy duty litz wire to try to get a more uniform current distribution in a coil. --

Don Kelly @shawcross.ca remove the X to answer

Reply to
Don Kelly

I should add, that the subdivision of conductors also reduces the proximity effect. Sometimes that can be of greater import than the skin effect. In any event, skin effect and proximity effect are both manifestations of eddy currents.

Bill

-- Ferme le Bush

Reply to
Salmon Egg

On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 14:07:19 GMT, "Pop" Gave us:

Whatever.

Wrong. If you did not change altitude from the outside of the tunnel to the inside postilion, your weight does not change.

Reply to
Roy L. Fuchs

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