x-no-archive: yes
Another one of those simple questions I can't find an answer to.
Why do some safe locks have 3 wheels and some have 4 wheels ? I've read that
an auto dialer (programmed with the right dead-zones) can get a 3 wheel lock
open in about 24 hrs.
Does a 3 wheel lock take 75% as much time to open as a 4 wheel lock ? Is
the increase linear or exponential ?
Sorry to use math lingo, I'm a math teacher :~)

Why do some auto's have all the bells & whistles?
Depends what the Mfr installed on the model.
Also depends what the customer spec'd.
Safes can be ordered in many different configurations. 3 wheel, 4 wheel & some
had 5 wheels. Some have locking dials, some have dual custody key locking.
Some safes can be dialed w/a dialer, some can't.
Personally, I would NEVER hook up my high $$$$ machine & leave it in a business
overnight with the possible combo SHOWING on screen.
Newnsie

Just higher security.
I never really thought about it until now. I don't even know if an auto
dialer would work (efficiently) on a four wheel lock. Figure by adding the
fourth wheel you're multiplying the number of possible combinations by 100.
So I guess if it could take 24 hours (theoretically) to open a three wheel
lock, wouldn't that mean that it could take a little over three months to
open a four wheel lock. (This might be wrong. Rough/long day - My brain is
like mush right now.)
Now I'm off to VBS. OH BOY!
(Insane man strangles 5th grader - film at eleven!)
Bobby

reader.com!newshosting.com!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!216.40.28.10.MISMATC
H!newscene!novia!novia!sequencer.newscene.com!not-for-mail
Exponential. A 4 wheel lock with 100 digits has 100 times the possible
combinations of a three wheel lock with the same 100 digits.
No offense but that's kind of hard to believe. Ok perhaps that's a little
harsh, maybe your confusion stems from a lack of understanding of the dialing
procedure or mechanism but the math here is pretty simple, even I can do it:) :
If N=number of digits on the dial eg 50 or 100
and
x=numbers in the combo eg 3 or 4
then possible combos forbidden zone not withstanding is:
x
N
ie a 3 wheel lock with 100 numbers on the dial has 1 000 000 possible combos a
4 wheel lock with the same 100 numbers has
100 000 000. Because of the design of the mechanisms the actual number of
combos is not that great but as a general rule you can safely assume a 4 wheel
lock all things being equal will be 100 times harder to run all potential
combos on than a 3 wheel. I have never heard of anyone autodialing a 4 wheel
lock. Doing so would likely run considerable risk of wearing out the mechanism.
Autodialing a 3 wheel is hard on it unless if gives quickly.

exponential
100 times 100 times say 80, vs 100 *100*100*80
thats the POSSIBLE top number of combinations
the dialers CAn sometimes try the possibilities in 24 hours,
ASSUMING a few things, but there is a new tool out that can be
even faster, and NO i DONT MEAN DRILLING
(OR using the combo)
--Shiva--

x-no-archive: yes
OK, how about this
A safe combination is really a "permutation", the order of the numbers is
important. The Mega Millions lottery is a "combination". You win if you pick
all the numbers regardless of the order in which they're drawn.
When a human manipulates a lock, he knows when he's got a number because he
can feel it. What I should have asked was.... Is a 4 wheel lock harder (than
a 3 wheel lock) for a HUMAN to manipulate ? I would guess this is a linear
increase in difficulty.
Are autodialers really really dumb things that have to try every combination
without getting tactile "feedback"?

It's actually as much or more a visual skill.
Yes it is harder. And yes practicaly speaking the degree of difficulty is
linear. You have one more wheel to find the gate on and you do consequently
have one more number to get in the proper sequence.
Basically yes. There is now at least one auto manipulator on the market which
takes contact point readings and calculates accordingly. Do a web search on
softdrill. It is about 3 times the cost of an autodialer however and the locks
it works on are limited.

FEEL IT? NO.. the BEST he can do is HOPE he dialed CORRECT and
stopped on eh CORRECT spot of the dial-and this TOTALLY depends
on the INDIVIDUAL lock, its grade and design.
DEPENDS on the age/design of the lock.. I did a 4 number combo
ONCE, and got (DERNED LUCKY) it open in 45 minutes. this lock was
at the time I opened it, according to the patent on the dial,
about 110 years old.
Can a NEW one be done? of GOOD design? some can. and some
cannot.. a group 2 is a 'possible' (given INFINITE time) whereas
a group 1 is NOT.
try EVERY? no they dont, necessarily.. but they 'cover' all
--Shiva--

Are we forgetting that ... as an example: S&G will drop into the gate on the
number and 1 to the left and another to the right... making the wheel break
down from 100 into a rough 33 numbers. Actual possible combinations are
closer to 33X33X33X27=970,299 or thereabouts... All depends on the size of
the gate which usually depends on the quality of the lock. The ITL
auto-dialer claims to open 3 wheels in 30 hours then if you apply the 4th
wheel by X27 then it'll take a little over a month. Get out the Nitro!

It's exponential. The possible combinations for a 1 number safe is 100. For
a two wheel safe, 100 x 100, and for three wheel, it's 100 x 100 x 100, or
100 cubed.
Four wheels would be 100 to the fourth power.
For most applications, three wheels is plenty. Keeps most folks out.

Right: "Model 6730 ... has +-0.5 number dialing tolerances for increased
security."
But: "Model 6641 ... has +-1.25 number dialing tolerances to make it
easier to dial open."
So on this one, that "33" has meaning.
Once again, there is a tradeoff between security and convenience.

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