question-- difference between 3 and 4 wheel safe locks

x-no-archive: yes
Another one of those simple questions I can't find an answer to.
Why do some safe locks have 3 wheels and some have 4 wheels ? I've read that
an auto dialer (programmed with the right dead-zones) can get a 3 wheel lock
Does a 3 wheel lock take 75% as much time to open as a 4 wheel lock ? Is
the increase linear or exponential ?
Sorry to use math lingo, I'm a math teacher :~)
Why do some auto's have all the bells & whistles?
Depends what the Mfr installed on the model.
Also depends what the customer spec'd.
Safes can be ordered in many different configurations. 3 wheel, 4 wheel & some had 5 wheels. Some have locking dials, some have dual custody key locking.
Some safes can be dialed w/a dialer, some can't.
Personally, I would NEVER hook up my high \$\$\$\$ machine & leave it in a business overnight with the possible combo SHOWING on screen.
Newnsie
Just higher security.
I never really thought about it until now. I don't even know if an auto dialer would work (efficiently) on a four wheel lock. Figure by adding the fourth wheel you're multiplying the number of possible combinations by 100. So I guess if it could take 24 hours (theoretically) to open a three wheel lock, wouldn't that mean that it could take a little over three months to open a four wheel lock. (This might be wrong. Rough/long day - My brain is like mush right now.)
Now I'm off to VBS. OH BOY!
(Insane man strangles 5th grader - film at eleven!)
Bobby
Exponential. A 4 wheel lock with 100 digits has 100 times the possible combinations of a three wheel lock with the same 100 digits.
No offense but that's kind of hard to believe. Ok perhaps that's a little harsh, maybe your confusion stems from a lack of understanding of the dialing procedure or mechanism but the math here is pretty simple, even I can do it:) :
If N=number of digits on the dial eg 50 or 100
and x=numbers in the combo eg 3 or 4
then possible combos forbidden zone not withstanding is: x N
ie a 3 wheel lock with 100 numbers on the dial has 1 000 000 possible combos a 4 wheel lock with the same 100 numbers has 100 000 000. Because of the design of the mechanisms the actual number of combos is not that great but as a general rule you can safely assume a 4 wheel lock all things being equal will be 100 times harder to run all potential combos on than a 3 wheel. I have never heard of anyone autodialing a 4 wheel lock. Doing so would likely run considerable risk of wearing out the mechanism. Autodialing a 3 wheel is hard on it unless if gives quickly.
<as a general rule you can safely assume a 4
I should have qualified this by saying "assuming the locks in question have 100 number dials."
exponential 100 times 100 times say 80, vs 100 *100*100*80 thats the POSSIBLE top number of combinations
the dialers CAn sometimes try the possibilities in 24 hours, ASSUMING a few things, but there is a new tool out that can be even faster, and NO i DONT MEAN DRILLING (OR using the combo) --Shiva--
good estimate tho..
--Shiva--
SoftDrill if you can justify paying for it.
And you can be a proud owner for a mere seven grand.
x-no-archive: yes
A safe combination is really a "permutation", the order of the numbers is important. The Mega Millions lottery is a "combination". You win if you pick all the numbers regardless of the order in which they're drawn.
When a human manipulates a lock, he knows when he's got a number because he can feel it. What I should have asked was.... Is a 4 wheel lock harder (than a 3 wheel lock) for a HUMAN to manipulate ? I would guess this is a linear increase in difficulty.
Are autodialers really really dumb things that have to try every combination without getting tactile "feedback"?
It's actually as much or more a visual skill.
Yes it is harder. And yes practicaly speaking the degree of difficulty is linear. You have one more wheel to find the gate on and you do consequently have one more number to get in the proper sequence.
Basically yes. There is now at least one auto manipulator on the market which takes contact point readings and calculates accordingly. Do a web search on softdrill. It is about 3 times the cost of an autodialer however and the locks it works on are limited.
its just boys and the toys... LOL
--Shiva--
FEEL IT? NO.. the BEST he can do is HOPE he dialed CORRECT and stopped on eh CORRECT spot of the dial-and this TOTALLY depends on the INDIVIDUAL lock, its grade and design.
DEPENDS on the age/design of the lock.. I did a 4 number combo ONCE, and got (DERNED LUCKY) it open in 45 minutes. this lock was at the time I opened it, according to the patent on the dial, about 110 years old. Can a NEW one be done? of GOOD design? some can. and some cannot.. a group 2 is a 'possible' (given INFINITE time) whereas a group 1 is NOT.
try EVERY? no they dont, necessarily.. but they 'cover' all
--Shiva--
Are we forgetting that ... as an example: S&G will drop into the gate on the number and 1 to the left and another to the right... making the wheel break down from 100 into a rough 33 numbers. Actual possible combinations are closer to 33X33X33X27=970,299 or thereabouts... All depends on the size of the gate which usually depends on the quality of the lock. The ITL auto-dialer claims to open 3 wheels in 30 hours then if you apply the 4th wheel by X27 then it'll take a little over a month. Get out the Nitro!
We are not forgetting it because it isn't the case. Not even the basic 6730 is that sloppy.
a gate is 5 #'s wide the fence is 2.5 # wide so you are safer to say it will open on a 2 # increment.
It's exponential. The possible combinations for a 1 number safe is 100. For a two wheel safe, 100 x 100, and for three wheel, it's 100 x 100 x 100, or 100 cubed.
Four wheels would be 100 to the fourth power.
For most applications, three wheels is plenty. Keeps most folks out.
Right: "Model 6730 ... has +-0.5 number dialing tolerances for increased security."
But: "Model 6641 ... has +-1.25 number dialing tolerances to make it easier to dial open."
So on this one, that "33" has meaning.
Once again, there is a tradeoff between security and convenience.
My God..... There are things that you don't know..... as in the case of WD-40 and so on and so on.....

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