Way off topic question

Steve B wrote:


In the final analysis, every soldier is a rifleman first.
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"B.B." wrote:

It's your life.
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On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 01:18:25 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm,
quoth:

The phrase "foolish choice" immediately comes to mind. What were you THINKING? (Oh, I get it. The court gave you two choices? OK, swap!)

Our numbers are growing daily, on both sides. <sigh> We need a President we can believe in, like we used to.

Maybe, for a week or two, but not for 4 years. Realize that you'll be instantly transported into the middle of the war as soon as you leave boot camp. There are others who've been there for too long now and you'll immediately take one of their places.
I felt the same way about Nam and was given a reprieve. My number was called in the draft and I was sent an Order to Report. Since I was in the process of moving back to CA from AZ after school, I asked for and received an OK to transfer to my local (San Diego) board. Once I got back, they put me on Hold and told me that they already had their quota. Whew! BTW, my school of choice was Universal Technical Institute and the study was Auto Mechanics. I graduated with 4 certificates: Mechanics, Doctor of Motors Student Citation <g>, Auto Air Conditioning, and Automatic Transmissions. I'd have gone to Nam as a wrench just as you'll go to Iraq as one.

Chicken out on Monday...unless you have a death wish AND like Hell. The fact that you're having second thoughts is telling. Override the Darwinian thoughts and bail now, dude. You sound as if you don't belong in the military any more than I would have.
Sign me: Air Force Brat.
- Better Living Through Denial ------------ http://diversify.com Dynamic Websites, PHP Apps, MySQL databases
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Do not ever...ever...ever...ever...ever...ever...ever...ever...believe what a recruiter tells you!!! You may be "guaranteed" a school. But, They "will" put you in what and where they "need" you once you sign that paper. Recruiters' promises are....I can't think of a negative enough word for them.
I can't believe some of the ads I see for the military, on TV. For the Army Reserves: "Mom, I've already checked them out. And they'll train me as an engineer, and I can still go to school and they won't call me up unless they "really" need me." Has anyone ever told you about the "stop loss" program that's keeping soldiers in long after their "contracted" enlistment time is up?
Do not go into the Army with what appears to be your dillusion that you're only going to be a mechanic, and won't be trained and used as a "fighter".
I know of what I speak!
Talk to people who are or have been recently in the Army. Get a real picture from people who aren't being paid bonuses to sign you up.
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If you can follow orders and do the job assigned to you in spite of your political convictions you will be able to serve. If you think that might not be possible then the Army isn't the place for you. You are about to enter a whole different world where the First Amendment does NOT apply and the biggest concept to understand is - "you don't have a choice". Doesn't matter if you don't like it, doesn't even matter if it is obviously stupid and inefficient. If you get ordered to do it, you must do it. If you don't, you get in trouble. Enough trouble and the Army will just send you home with a dishonorable discharge which is NOT something you want on your resume. Enough trouble while serving in Iraq and you might get a stopover at Fort Leavenworth. Since your post is coherent and grammatically correct I'll assume you are fairly smart. Make sure you understand that all the folks you think are stupid may have joined the Army before you and will outrank you and can give you orders to do the dumbest damned things you ever saw. Doesn't even matter if they are your boss or not. EVERYONE who outranks you will give you orders, usually done in a manner to satisfy their personal egos and not to show you any kind of respect or common courtesy. If you can live with that for a couple of years, go ahead.
Good luck. Steve. former artillery officer
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Go back to your liberal college. You would not be a good member of ANY organization if you pick and choose who you will mind and what job you will perform.
When given an order you need to be able to snap to attention, salute, and bark "Yes, Sir!" and mean it.
Waffling wavering woosies like you are at the core of what is rotten in our military. And it shows your lack of immaturity in not being able to take or follow orders. You think your mommie and daddie were tough about keeping your room clean and your shoes shined? You ain't seen nothing yet, and it only starts there.
You do not have what it takes to be a member of the United States military.
Steve
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Steve B wrote:

I had to read that three times. The third time I got to "lack of immaturity" .....LOL
ff
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Okay, okay. Brain fart. Go back and read it again and blot out the "im" in immaturity.
The rest of my post speaks for itself.
If you are the type of person who only wants to do certain things, and not others, you would not be military material.
"What do you mean I have to get up at five o'clock in the morning?"
"I'm not eating this swill. I'm a vegan."
"Do I HAVE to shoot at the person shooting at me? I mean, I could hurt him."
"I'm not doing ANYTHING President Bush has ordered because I don't LIKE him!"
Like I said, the rest of my post stands. And the one mistake has been corrected.
Steve
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Steve, when your spelling or grammar is their best attack, that says something!
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Thank you, Tom. I definitely heard the sound of WHOOSH! ( the sound that happens when a point flies over an airspace)
When anyone writes in asking about joining the armed forces, yet states they have reservations about following orders, one must conclude that they are either a troll, or someone who shouldn't be allowed out in public without adult supervision.
But then, the military, and the guys have many unusual ways of "teaching" such people. And, it's amazing what one can learn and how an attitude can be changed during a "GI shower" or a "blanket party" given by fellow soldiers. Or just leaving a guy on his own in certain circumstances when he has stated that he doesn't need any help or any of his fellows.
As to those who hang on grammar or spelling, they just don't have a logical lucid counterpoint to offer, so they attack any mistake or weakness. They have no clue about the military, or how things work in the real world.
Body bag material.
Steve
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Tom Gardner wrote:

Tom, Steve did not make a mistake in spelling or grammar. He wrote a _Bushism_
"It's in our country's interests to find those who would do harm to us and get them out of harm's way." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., April 28, 2005
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Thank you so much for correcting me, Fred. It is nice to know there are people out there to tell me what I really meant and said.
I think.
NOT!
Steve
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"Steve B" wrote: (clip) Waffling wavering woosies like you (clip) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Spiro Agnew is posting here? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ And it shows your lack of immaturity (clip) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Lack of immaturity is what I strive for.
Do you get any sense of direction from Steve B's post, taken as a whole? In the military you would not be allowed to think, nor given a chance to think.
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The military certainly would not allow people to think...those people not capable of thinking, like you Leo, but they still find a useful purpose for the non-thinkers.
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"Tom Gardner" wrote: The military certainly would not allow people to think...those people not capable of thinking, like you Leo, but they still find a useful purpose for the non-thinkers. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Tom, I can't tell whether you are saying I am, or am not capable of thinking. I won't sleep tonight until you clarify whether I should take it as an insult or a back-handed compliment.
Unfortunately, having a non-thinker as Commander in Chief has had a tremendous negative effect on the usefulness of the Army.
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It seems obvious that you hate Pres. Bush, therefore everyone in the President's service and everyone in the service is a "non-thinker". I have ten relatives in various services in career positions of Major and above, two are up for Admiral. Let me give you their e-mail addresses so you can tell them yourself that they are "non-thinkers", be sure to include your address and phone number! Be sure to thank them for fighting for your right to sound foolish. I'm not trying to insult you Leo. When I DO insult you, I'll explain it to you so there's no doubt.
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I had a lot of fun with the non-thinkers and blaming them in front of a lot of people. :-) Some learned the hard way what to do with me and what not.
Nick
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wrote:

When I was in the 2nd Armored Cav in Germany 20 years ago the driver of my M577 was one of those given the choice of "prison or the Army". Great guy, always had my track ready to roll, never let me down.
Little story to illustrate the real problem. - One morning, way too early, the runner comes through the Officers Quarters building banging on everyone's door calling "Alert, Alert". Yippee. So I get dressed and head up to the track park. There I find my NCO and SP4 sitting in an empty parking space. "**Where's the track?" "Sir, maintenance got it late yesterday. Benson went to get it". So I jog down to maintenance to find my track. There, in a parking lot completely empty except for 1 M577, sits PFC Benson with the motor running. "**Why are you sitting here?" "Waiting for someone to be ground guide, Sir" "**OK, I'm the ground guide. Let's go" As I start to back him out of the parking space, around the corner comes one of my fellow lieutenants - "Stop, Stop!" "**Why?" "Because you can't back up a vehicle without a REAR ground guide" "**OK, you be it" "I can't, you need to go find one" "**There's no one else here and the parking lot is empty, you might want to move unless you'd like to be really flat". So I guide the vehicle up to the track park and we all pile in and roll for the alert. Later that day I find out that one of the "problems" formally noted on the alert was my backing up a vehicle without a proper rear ground guide.
Gunner - I'll put $1000 on the table that this guy is now at least a full Colonel and, while difficult, is a bigger frickin' dickhead than he was 20 years ago. And if he was a Captain and ordered me not to move the vehicle without a rear ground guide I'd have had no choice but to waste another 10 minutes hiking around trying to find one.
It's not a matter of education, it's a matter of how you use it when faced with the situation where following the regulations is obviously a stupid thing to do. And the Army wants you to follow orders and the regs no matter what. I have a ton of similar stories.
Even 20 years ago I served with a number of the "best and brightest". The problem is that the vast majority of us(!) decided not to make the Army a career.
I currently run and compete in High Power Rifle competitions so have regular contact with people who have recently gotten out or are still on active duty. My conversations with them do not cause me to think that things are substantially different now.
Steve.
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On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 16:24:48 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"

Depends on what part of the military. Capable soldiers, NCO's and officers are thinking constantly and effectively. They tend to have high survival rates even in the worst of times.
The military is not a philosophy class or a venue for abstract intellectual introspection. The kind of thinking that works there is thinking focussed on mission and survival, out-thinking the enemy bent on your destruction. Not unlike competitive bidness, though the processes and rules of engagement differ. It's thinking about very pragmatic matters like tactics, logistics and creative ways to kill rather than be killed. Those unable or unwilling to embrace that discipline do tend to be SOL when the enemy is thinking better than they are.
That was an unfortunate aspect of the draft in the 'Nam era. A lot of young men were conscripted that lacked the capability of being a competent soldier. They probably weren't competent of being much else either, but while incompetence in civilian life may result in poverty and sucking the welfare tit it is seldom fatal.
It was different in earlier conflicts like WWII because the men who went to war then were motivated. Those who grew up during the depression had already developed some toughness and ability to deal with adversity. They did not view life as an entitlement.
It is also different now, because the men and women who go to Iraq are 100% volunteers. There are no conscripts. There may be some who hoped to trick the system by cashing military paychecks while avoiding military service. Oopsie. Pick yer pony, take yer ride.
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I think in normal times soldiers are discouraged from thinking because it make them independent and tough to manage. Those who do so, do it in spite of the results.
In combat it's the reverse. Those who would othewise discourage independent thought from their subordinates find that doing this is counterproductive. And soldiers who do exhibit thoughtfulness survive better and can better support their officers.
Chicken shit management in combat probably gets folks killed.
Jim
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