OT - For those that like political discussion on rmr - you can even discuss religion with this one



Perfect example that the exact same words can express the diametric opposite concepts - and i see this argument a lot from creationists!
The sequence of random events ARE exactly and only those necessary to create the species. The fallacy is that the result was intended, desired, or even important. It's just the inevitable result of the events that DID happen.
Executive summary: No design work necessary. Random events will, in time, produce Shakespere. Natural selection just speeds up the timeframe.
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writes:

Found it! http://www.vivaria.net/experiments/notes/publication /
--
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf
  Click to see the full signature.
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Bob Kaplow wrote:

I thought that was the purpose of Usenet.
Bill Sullivan
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Evolution itself is an example of beneficial mutation, Tai! [:>0
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Evolution itself is an example of beneficial mutation, Tai! [:>0
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Dan Cox wrote:

Just curious but how do you know the universe is NOT "teeming with life?" Last I checked we hadn't really looked much beyond this tiny little piece we call home.
I have no problem believing that the complexities that we see could have evolved given the billions of years they've had to work with.
Mario
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Mario Perdue wrote:

Well at least on earth life has been around for something like a billion years give or take a few hundred million. Given the number of successful organisms and the variety that we now have seems like we've had an awful lot of luck when you consider the number of successful random mutations that had to have occurred and in enough numbers in any given species to create enough viable offspring.
As far as the universe goes,, well we haven't heard from them yet either in person or by radio so...I have my doubts. I know the klingons are out there somewhere though..
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Dan Cox wrote:

If You're afraid of Klingons, maybe You should try ultra charmin. :)
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Dan Cox wrote: > As far as the universe goes,, well we haven't heard from them yet either

The fact that we've not heard from anyone else in the universe indicates that the other lifeforms may be intelligent...
:-)
Mario
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Mario Perdue wrote:

I gotta believe in the grand scheme of things other intelligent lifeforms view our *lifeform* much like how we view ants.
Ted Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75
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the notorious t-e-d wrote:

If that's the case, I just hope they don't have a magnifying glass.
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Mario Perdue wrote:

Well there is the joke that when contact is finally made the aliens are asked why they didn't talk to us earlier and they simply bow theirs heads and shake them side to side chanting, "Married with children, Married with children...."
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Dan Cox wrote:

This assumes that all of the other species "out there" are more highly advanced than we are here on Sol 3, at least from a technological point of view. How do you know this is the case? Could it be possible that WE are the most highly advanced life form in this neck of the universe?
Somebody has to be first. Why not us?
Bill Sullivan
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My personal belief is that Zod's Interplanetary Toxic Waste Disposal Service was responsible for getting the life ball rolling here on Earth.
Kevin OClassen
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Kevin OClassen wrote:

It was the Jaggeroth! I saw it on Dr. Who!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/news/cult/news/drwho/2005/11/07/26818.shtml
Bill Sullivan
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You can't see it because the timescale is absolutely beyond the comprehension of most people. Do you really know how long 3.8 billion years is? That's 3 point eight times ten to the ninth. The complexities we see did not happen all at once. They happened over trillions of generations over billions of years, and built upon one another.
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Dan Cox wrote:

Customer: Look matey, I know an empty 'argument from incredulity' when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.
Bill Sullivan
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Well, someone once said, if you believe your tailbone is vestigal, then he will pay to have yours removed.
Im sorry but I dont think there are such things as vestigal organs. There are organs that have been thought to be vestigal but are not. Like your appendix, it is a part of your immune system, you can live without it but you will get more diseases. You can live without your arms and legs and eyes/ear, so does that mean its vestigal?
Saying random chances created life and everything is like finding a computer or a cell phone and saying it made itself.
-- TAI FU
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Are you confusing your appendix with your spleen?
http://www.csicop.org/cgi-bin/search/search.cgi?q=intelligent+design
-Fred Shecter NAR 20117 http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrppZ25QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQsassZshreadvector
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"Vestigial" doesn't mean "better off without" or even "useless". It merely means that it has a reduced and rudimentary structure compared to the same structure in other organisms. The functions they perform are done using structures that are clearly capable of more complex behavior. Non-functionality is not a requirement for vestigial character. (For example, the wings of an ostrich are vestigial, even though they are clearly useful for balance, courtship displays, and defense; they are merely not used in the complex way that wings are usually used on birds.)
It's a bit like using a television to hammer in a nail. The television would serve a function, and would even perform the function to which I was setting it. Clearly, though, the television was not designed merely to pound in nails, which one can see if one compares it to the televisions in entertainment systems elsewhere.
Besides, even if my tailbone *were* useless, why would I submit to an operation to remove it? Any operation is, by its very invasive nature, hazardous. Why submit to a pointless hazard with no (or almost no) potential payoff?

Nope. You have the wrong definition of "vestigial". See above.

No -- it's more akin to finding laws under which pieces of cell-phone-like structures tend to organize spontaneously, and then arguing that the cell phones we see with no clear origin could have arisen spontaneously.
Biological proteins tend to organize spontaneously under the laws of organic chemistry. Your analogy is flawed because we have observed no laws that allow elements to combine on their own into the small structures required for a cell phone.
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