[OT] Moon landing

Yes, he did. He impugned their integrity by inferring that they are doing it for mercenary reasons -- that they've joined the military just because they want someone to pay their way through college. I'm here to tell you that they're not. See my other response if you care for amplification of this.

David Erbas-White

Isn't this the number I used?

If you really want to do a thorough comparison, equating congressman to households really isn't satisfactory. What you really need to know is the average number of children someone in congress has, and the average number of children the average American has. Those can be used as a reference to compare the probability that someone in congress has a child in the military vs. the national average.

Again, comparing the CURRENT number of people in the military to the total number of congressmen's children that served in the military ANYTIME is comparing apples in oranges. You either need to (try to) compare the current number of congressmen's children in the miltary with the current military, or the number of congressmen's children that have served in the miltary anytime with the number of people (up to age XX) that have ever served military anytime.

Regardless, we're getting away from the original point that was stated (i.e. only 3 congressman currently stand to loose a child in the military).

Dave

The vast majority serving did not go to college, as yet. Those who went as my daughter did, through college ROTC and worked to pay the difference, are now paying it back through their service, some with their lives. My son is earning his college money with 6 years under his belt. His choice, it was not necessary to go to college. They wanted to pay their own way.

We have a book that traces our family back to the 1400's. Our family on both sides have always served in the military, usually as a career and some go all the way back to before it was called the United States. A few of them died on the Trail of Tears. We are not now and never have been poor. Not rich either but always it has been a free choice, mostly from a desire to protect and further what they love most, this country. They don't mind citizens speaking their minds, regardless of which side a person takes, but they do strenuously object to the colorizations coming from the media these days.

If it's bad report it, if it's good report that and without opinions from the talking hollow heads and politicians trying to further their careers. "The facts ma'am, nothing but the facts. Contrary to Jack Nicholson, we can handle the truth.

There is nothing great about any war, it's not glamorous, romantic, or fair. War is Hell. The only way to fight one is all the way or stay the heck at home. I am astounded at how little people really understand about linkage and what's really happening all over the globe. It IS about this country and what we stand for. It is ALSO about oil but no matter how many reasons there may be, there is one thing for sure, the fanatics want us all dead, they even blow up their own places of worship and kill their own countrymen for no reason and if we sit on our butts and try to appease them, no one will be here to say "I told you so."

Randy

Sorry, there should have been a snip below David's name.

Randy

This is the language of a NAR President.

Excellent post, David!

Respectfully: Needless to say, that is a major reason that many people join the military. I believe that a sense of patriotism, and a desire to serve the country also contributes, but I think that if you step back a bit you'll see that Bob is right about this. Not to the _exclusion_ of the desire to serve the country, but in addition to it. The military is of course well aware of this - if you look at recruiting materials, you'll see a mix of reference to service and reference to benefits (for example, check out GoArmy.com). There's a reason for that.

I also disagree that suggesting that a person joined the military for the benefits amounts to "impugning their integrity". I took my job largely because they pay me, and it wouldn't upset me at all if someone pointed that out. I know a LOT of people who joined the military because it provided them with a way out of what would have otherwise been a sad little deadend life. I don't disrespect them for that decision: I respect them for it, even if it's the one and only reason they joined. It's a good decision - a VERY good decision - for a lot of people, simply on that basis, and a hell of a lot better than the popular alternatives. ================================ There are people, even here in America who believe that being in the U.S. military is simply wrong or worse. Some of them shoot their mouths off about it. If Bob had said something like that, then he'd deserve our bile. I barely know him, but I'd be very surprised to hear him say something genuinely anti-soldier. If we go after people who respect the troops the same way we go after those who do not, we're certainly not doing a service to the troops. Quite the opposite.

Yes, I'm well aware of that...

David Erbas-White

Howdy wrote:

And with the same respect, what I see (and I see it in-depth these days, as my son is just about to graduate from high school, so I hear both from him and many of his contemporaries) from those who wish to go into the military is that the desire to serve comes first, and the thought process of 'working out the pay' comes second. Honestly, most of these kids don't really pay a huge amount of attention to the pay and perks (though frankly they should ). I'll give you three distinct examples that I know of (one is my son, but I won't name names... ). The first kid I know is growing up in a broken home, is not doing well in school, and doesn't know what to do with his life. In Civil Air Patrol, he has found that he can blossom, and that the 'military style' of life fits with him. He is contemplating joining the military after graduation, and (IMHO) the military is just what he needs to get straightened out. The second kid is doing well in school, but is also unsure of his future direction, but has seen enough of the military to be seriously considering it as a CAREER (not as a means to getting an education). Based on what I've seen, the military would be a great place for this kid too, and I believe he would do well, whether as an enlisted man or officer. The third kid is doing very well in school, and is trying to get into one of the military academies. He is unsure of whether he will make the military an actual career, but definitely wants to join (as an officer), give his service, and will later decide whether to stay. This kid is pretty dedicated, and does other extracurricular activities (other than school). He, too, will be an asset to the military, and will benefit from it.

The only one who (arguably) is going in for the education benefits is the third kid -- and frankly, IMHO, it's a 'side' issue -- he wants to go into a military academy as a challenge, and for the prestige, and to obtain officer status -- not because he doesn't have other means to obtain an education.

I don't disagree with your assertion that one shouldn't be proud of being paid for their job -- but the military is a special case. It even has special rules and laws that govern it, outside of those that govern the rest of the nation. IMHO, Bob's statement was a direct attack on the integrity of those who are volunteering -- he made two statements:

1. Most of todays military is there because they couldn't get money for their education any other way.

I absolutely dispute this first assertion, and have put forth plenty of verbiage outlining my reasoning behind this.

1. No one screams when the poor die.

This is just a flat out nasty, wrong comment. Again, we know of plenty of folks who've been injured/killed in Iraq (and in other conflicts in the past), and there's not a single instance where the 'family background' has come into play when honoring them. I have met many military personnel who DO have money (in their family), but that's only been discovered after I have gotten to know them -- when I meet a soldier, I meet someone who has volunteered to support their country, and isn't wearing their background on their sleeve. One of the things that I've been told by some soldiers from poorer backgrounds is that the reason they LIKE the military is because (for the most part), everything is done on MERIT, not on background -- thus, they have the opportunity to MAKE THEIR OWN WAY, in some ways far better than they would be able to do in the 'civilian' world.

When I tell a soldier "thank you for serving", I don't generally have any knowledge of his/her background. They may be rich, they may be poor. I'm thanking them for the honor they have done (to me), by volunteering to serve, and possibly paying the ultimate price. To infer that 'just the poor' are volunteering is nasty on so many levels that I can't list them all, but in brief, it 1) denigrates the honor of the poor who've joined, inferring that they only did it for mercenary reasons, and taking away the dignity of their donation to our country, and 2) it denies and downplays the honor of the rich who've joined, IGNORING the fact that they've done so for patriotic reasons (since there obviously isn't a financial incentive for them to do so).

So, Mr. Howdy, while I understand YOUR position, it doesn't seem to be what Bob was saying, and I hope you consider this a respectful response to your reply...

David Erbas-White

George Bush senior's ( who was shot down by JAPS in the pacific) had his son flying in the Texas National Guard. Now "W" didn't fly in Operation Linebacker over Nam, but flying a jet fighter is a VERY dangerous thing to do even in SAFE air space. So it looks like the Bush's 'walk the walk, and talk the talk'. So how about you Kaplow? Have you servered for this nation? For Freedom? Or you just one of those people who try to run the world from your living room arm chair?

As a side note, I have lost relatives in Nam, and support and honor their sacrifice!

More left-wing, idiolog nonsense! Bob, you can buy a unit (credit) of education for $50 in most states at the local junior colleges. Most state and universitys, honor credits and transfer them. So the first two years of a 4 year degree can be paid for for $5000.00 or less; you DON'T have to die in a swamp or sand dune to earn an education. Should the student show talent and hard work, then getting into a state school or better with scholarship would be no problem.

People who serve do so understanding that they may be called upon to make the ultimate sacrifice. I understand that you don't have many principles, but most other Americans do!

Opportunity exists out there people! Don't let Bob Kaplow bullshit you into thinking there isn't! Its people like him that tell you the police hunt blacks for sport. Its people like him that tell you global warming will kill us in a few years. Its people like him that tell you paper is better than plastic ... the man is cRaZY I tell you! :)

Hear Hear ... I concur with your feelings David. All this rocket, Irvine, us vs. them shit aside, Bob Kaplow, you really should only speak of things you trully understand and have experienced.

I was CAP as a teen. I have served. I want to KILL Bin Laden and his 'camel jockey' followers.

Kaplow, I don't say that because I want a scholarship to Brown or Yale, but because its my duty as an American. As a person who undstands and appreciates the freedoms that I now enjoy and my utter loathing of the people who wish to take that away from me by flying me into a sky scraper in the name of allah, I want to kill Binny. Bob, my respect for and of you has just fallen to complete absolute ZERO.

I don't care how many 'funny rockets' you make ... your not an American (only by birth, unfortunately). I don't care how many rockets you have in your basement ... your not an American (not when compared to the men and women taking fire overseas). I don't care or give a flying f*ck how many years you have been flying rockets ... you are NOT an American when compared to the vast majority of men an women who have died on the exit ramp of a higgins boat on Normandy, or dropped into a DMZ and took a death round from 'Charlie in the bush' ... or any of those who will follow us long after we are dust in the earth and stand to fight for America and all that she stands for.

Bob, move to France with the rest of the 'Hollywood elite' and allow the rest of us to continue on making America the greatest nation this planet has ever seen in the history of mankind. Bob, the 'door' is just a train ride and Air Frace jet ride from you ... PLEASE use it ASAP!

Ray!

Wait a dog on minute -

"As a result, America has become a nation of (mostly) spoiled over-grown children. Everything has to be easy and risk-free. As soon as anything starts to get difficult or costly or risky, they want to cut and run. Never mind that the long-term costs of doing so may be far greater. "

You Ray, have just defined a HIPPIE! :)

I had a hippie girl friend > snipped-for-privacy@charter.net wrote:

I do consider it one, and thanks for taking the time and effort. I see two distinct kinds of response to Kaplow's comments here, and unlike the other kind, yours honors the soldier. It takes an adult to rise to the occasion like this - perhaps the other respondents could use your response as a model. I do still respectfully disagree to some extent, though mostly on just interpretation of Kaplow's intent, and that's a matter of nit-picking, not important enough to bother with anymore.