[OT] Patriot Act renewed



He didn't have any explosive.
They had no "probable cause" to believe he had any explosive.
They were simply using a take down technique one would use IF a person had explosives.
Their right to life be damned.
Jerry
"When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything begins to look like a nail." -Lotfi Zadeh
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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wrote:

I've always liked a slightly different version of that saying.
- Rick "What, me blaspheme?" Dickinson
--
"When all you've got is a nailgun, every problem looks like a messiah..."
-- Iain Chalmers, in alt.sysadmin.recovery
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"Giving the power to interfere in people's lives to a government is like giving a three-year-old a hammer, they soon discover that everything they encounter requires pounding."
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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True.
Has anyone read the CAFTA thing? In times of dispute, it dictates that a panel or committee will settle arguments, rather than our own judicial system. I'm all for free trade and I voted for Bush but on this one he's dead wrong. This is no different than Clinton trying to put our military control under the direction of the U.N. this one world government crap is just that and the donkeys and elephants are both trying to lead us there.
Reminds me of what my grandmother used to say about boiling a frog. If you try to put a frog in a pot of boiling water it will jump out but if you put him in first and turn the heat up slowly, he'll sit in the pot until he's boiled alive. They know there would be widespread revolt if they try it all at once but if it's eased in little by little, before we realize it, it's done and they are constantly testing the waters.
Randy http://vernarockets.com /
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The oath of office of a lot of folks is being violated. What is the actual penalty for violating a federal pledge of office?

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Revolution.
--
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf
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kaplow snipped-for-privacy@encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) wrote:

Is that literally all?
www.findlaw.com
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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David Erbas-White wrote:

Dave, it's not the bullet that would detonate the explosives, more likely the terrorist. A headshot's pretty much going to remove any chance of the terorist pulling his arming wire on the explosives belt, whereas with a torso shot, it'll hurt like hell but even if the guy's on the deck, one or both of his arms will still function to pull the wire. Even with a shot directly through the heart, the brain & body will still function for sufficiently long to pull the wire.
I guess, in the coldest possible terms, it's a matter of taking out the non-redundant link in the chain - two arms, 2 legs, one brain. Under normal circumstances (i.e where the target isn't suspected of carrying a bomb, you're absolutely right that a torso shot would be preferred for the reasons you gave, and that it's less likely to be fatal too.
G.
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Graham J. Platt
graham (a) bowhunter (d) demon (d) co (d) uk
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See my other post.

The idea is not to just get a hit but to destroy the brain stem to stop any reflex actions/post mortem spasms from closing a switch or whatever to detonate a bomb.
Chris
--
Chris Eilbeck
MARS Flight Crew http://www.mars.org.uk /
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Chris Eilbeck wrote:

I guess everybody kind of missed one of my points.
You would have to be an absolute EXPERT marksman to hit a moving subject in the head with a handgun at any kind of distance. My 'supposition' would be that you take your first shots at the torso to maximize your chances of hitting him (and not hitting innocent bystanders), then once he's down, you can take your headshot (assuming he's still moving and/or a threat). The fact that they CHOSE to use a headshot FIRST is what has me confused, especially in a country where the vast majority of the police force doesn't even have firearms training.
I should add that I don't watch much TV, so I don't know if there's video of what happened -- if it was from 2-3 feet away, I stand corrected, but anything farther than a few feet, and I'm just surprised...
David Erbas-White
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These weren't average plod as I understand it, they were SO-19 and specially trained based on the Israeli experience for this job.
Chris
--
Chris Eilbeck
MARS Flight Crew http://www.mars.org.uk /
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Chris Eilbeck wrote:

What I keep wondering about is WHY did it take 5 shots from these "specially trained" elite armed doughnut munchers to do the deed at close range? It just doesn't sound quite right.
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Why do you think it's five shots from just one shooter?
Chris
--
Chris Eilbeck
MARS Flight Crew http://www.mars.org.uk /
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says...

The poster's phraseology (doughnut munchers) reveals his motivation... 'e hates coppers, 'e does.
Why not 5, or 10 or 15 bullets? Dead is dead, it's just a waste of lead. No more, no less.
--
Tweak

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Tweak wrote:

If that's the case then I like to think that after the first shot the others would get a clue the guy's been popped. I would. That's another one of those "quick reacting, snap decision" type things this whole discussion is about.

No, I have a general distrust of authority figures, borne out by seeing abuse of that said authority they're entrusted with. From the Bushwhacker puppeteers when they decide which candidate will win the next election to the cop in the street intimidating a citizen with his power so they'll meekly accept the ticket he's writing them. Abuse of power is unacceptable by the ideals this country is supposed to be following. BTW, "coppers" is a little too archaic a term. So archaic it gives a romantic and stylish connotation that makes one think of the old gangsters from the movies. Were I to choose a derisive and archaic term it would be "pig" from the 60's era. I use the term "doughnut munchers/pastry patrol/etc" as a satirical trivialization of those that deserve it, in the style of Arlo Guthrie, without it carrying over on those that don't. At least not so bad that it can't be just dismissed as another incarnation of the stock imagery that's out there. But, if you really insist, I can be a clich and blanket "hater of coppers". And if you're going to pigeonhole me, do it with some style and show you've some letters about you. I prefer being called a "thought-crime duck quaker", personally.

It's a waste of training too if it takes 5 shots from a "highly trained" person(s). I could do it with one squeeze of the trigger at that range and I don't have their training, or even have picked up a gun in about 20 years.
Chuck D.
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says...

Nah, not worth the effort for a quickie jibe. Feel free to think of me as the village idiot, or ignorant git, etc..
I do find "thought crime duck quaker" intriguing, though. Is that something like Daffy dressed like the man on the container of Quaker Oats?
--
Tweak

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Tweak wrote:

ROTFL! Hey, now I LIKE that mental image!. It's not the one I had in mind, since I was pulling from Orwell's "1984", but it's great all in itself! This is one of the few sub-cultures I can find creativity in any more....kinda depressing.
Chuck D. (quack quack)
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says...

Thought you might get a kick out of that.
--
Tweak

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"When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything begins to look like a nail." -Lotfi Zadeh
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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David Erbas-White wrote:

Dave, they were in a crowded space with solid walls which maximise chances of ricochet, and were obviously close enough to jump on top of the guy - the reports I've read so far indicate that these police were on top off the guy when the first shot was fired.
And you're right about the marksmanship needed with a handgun to hit a small moving target whilst under stress. Most SO19 carry H&K MP-5s, which are nice & accurate in single-shot or semi-auto (SAS used them too), but a bit bulky for close in or pursuit work. As Chris said, SO-19 are pretty much an elite, and train regularly with firearms, so they're the exception, rather than the rule.
G.
--
Graham J. Platt
graham (a) bowhunter (d) demon (d) co (d) uk
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