OT Boeing strike

Rights went out with monarchies, but some people don't get it yet...and won't until the go bankrupt.

Yeh... I see the Chinese have just bought Rover for a song.

Maybe they are lining up for Boeing?

Another greedy union that can stay on strike. Unions are the cause for most of the problems with US jobs going overseas. Why should someone sweeping floors get 20-30 dollars an hour and then bitch becuase he has to pay for some of his rising health care costs.

If you are a janitor and don't "earn enough" (I won't attempt to define this), then go back to school, one way or another.

Who ever decreed or guaranteed that a janitor job would allow a middle class income. That was always a temporary spot for high school & summer jobs.

Not if they re-classify the job as a "Sanitation Engineer". Then you will need a 4-year degree to push the broom :) But since we are talking about the Unions, then you probably need be a journeyman for a few years to learn the trade before you are actually qualified to call yourself , or work as a "Janitor".

I had an old girlfriend (she was young then) who used to work for US Steel and she literally was not allowed to change the bulb in the lamp ON HER DESK! It had to be done by some Uni. Is it any wonder why US Steel is essentially out of business and we purchase all of our steel form overseas???

Muggs

Better yet, some don't even put in 8 hours of work in a day. I had a professor in college who did an ergonomic study for one of the big US car manufacturers, and he had some interesting stories to tell.

He told us about how he was asked to observe the work of somebody who was assembling a part. The union stipulated that he had a certain quota of parts to make in a day, then he was done. THe problem was that he would do all of his work in about 3 or 4 hours then dissappear. My professor asked what he did once his work was done, and all he was told was that the worker wasn't supposed to go home. Since the guy was working fast, it was recommended that he was given the parts at a slower rate, but they couldn't do that because it was against union rules. He then suggested that once his assembly work is done that he do another job at the plant, but that too is against the union rules. There were a couple of other suggestions, but they all were against union rules. So, that just shows you how outrageous the unions can get.

Dinosaurs die out quickly...once the food chain is altered.

Too bad that that dinosaur is the US manufacturing capacity. Unions had their place, but too often are now an impediment to efficiency.

I have heard tales of non-union steel mills making higher profits and producing more steel than union mills. Does anybody know if this is true?

Jo,

Yep,, the unions aren't much more than a bastion for the mediocre at best. Creative thinking and action aren't permitted. Just a "put bolt in hole" type of mentality, oh,, and (almost forgot) gimme 80K a year to do it.

Back during the first aerospace bust we had alot of "machinests" looking for work around here. I was real busy and needed an additional person for about six months. I interviewed this guy who used to work for McDonald Douglas. He seemed familiar with my CNC equipment, as well as the conventional stuff so I gave him a shot. After being out of the shop for a couple of hours (meeting) I came back to find him sitting in front of a silent machine, reading the newspaper. I asked him "What's up". He said "A tool broke". I said "Well,, change it". He said "I don't do that". I said "get the hell out".

It's amazing to me that these guys brains haven't atrophied to the point where they can't even tie their shoes.

Regards

Mark

I believe the term is Mini-Mills, where many of those companies recycle steel into plate, rebar and shapes.

There is a whole new industry of those players in the last 20 years.

The best definition of a union is the protector of the lazy person. It's sad that this is what American unions have become. It's no wonder the kids don't want to work for a living but expect to be paid big dollars. When a worker is told to slow down because they're making every one else look bad because of the volume of work this one person is doing, I say let the jobs go over seas. Or better yet, let the work that these lazy

*(&(#*&$%!@# won't do to the non union shops. The other thing with unions is that when a non union contractor has to bid a job that is also being quoted by union contractors ( government jobs), the non union contractor MUST bid using union wage costs.

In my example, they guy wasn't lazy, he was very quick at what he did. Because of this they were worried that he might get a Cumulative Trauma Disorder (Carpal Tunnel or similar). Had he been in a non-union plant, he would have been given other work to do or would have had his supply brought in at a slower rate.

The problem that I see with many of the unions is that they treat the working environment like its 1870's, and the benefits like its the 1960's. The problem is that the conditions are not like either of those time periods. I personally would love to have the health, retirement, and employment benefits that the union people have. I think it is a sad day we live in where the bluecollar unions have better benefits than the whitecollar people who direct them.

If you have a boring job, that is your own fault, there is no job type that is boring. For example, I work with a Technicion who I know is paid less than $20/hr, but he loves his job. I have also seen engineers being paid $45000/yr who are bored with their jobs.

I am not saying that smelly, sweaty, dangerous job positions should be paid less. What I want to know is why is it that a union can come in and demand better healthcare and retirement benefits than the engineers, managers, accountants and soforth? With any job comes some on-the-job heath protection under "Workman's Compensation." Which takes care of any accident that happens at work, or is directly related to a person's position.

Salary or hourly wages are typically determined by market demand. For example, if you want a person to clean a building and perform minor maintenance, there are typically a lot of people who can fill that position. Not because people have aspired to do that work, but because the qualifications for that job are not that specific. Meaning that you can pay them $15 an hour to do that work because there is someone qualified who will take that pay. The other extreme can be seen in something like an engineer. If a company wants an engineer for a specific discipline with X years experience, a Professional License, and experience in specific CAD software, they will have to pay more than $15/hr to get one. Not because the Engineer is a snob, but because their skills are unique.

Being a former UAW member for 20+ years, I can testify to the validity of previous comments. We must remember why the unions came to be and the management attitudes at that time. I personally saw evidence of these attitudes up intill the late 80's. The root causes of the unions demise were the changing attitudes of management and the unions still being run by unreasonable, visionless people.

The unions had their place but were unwilling to see the costs of their unreasonable demands.

Steve

Cliff that you cannot ignore what is happening globally to manufacturing. Regardless of what you might want or think is fair there are many people around the world quite capable of doing these jobs and they are not getting anywhere near $60000. If the unions were being smart then they would be initiating a voluntary reduction in pay of 20 % rather than demanding an increase of 5%. Regardless of the size of the US economy you just can't carry on thinking the rest of the world doesn't matter. Like it or not the whole Western world is being dragged backwards by the emergence of Asia.

Not only that but the middle class is being eradicated as a result. Unskilled labour jobs can easily be replaced in Asia, but look at the trend now where skilled jobs such as programming, engineering etc is also being outsourced overseas. My brother in law's firm uses programmers in Belarus, they make about $1.50 US an hour and are just as capable as programmers he would have had to pay $50-60 an hour for on contract.

I also can't say I blame the unions for making hay while the sun is shining, might as well get as much as you can before the curtain falls.

I think you have to see that US capital knows no loyalty in much the same way as a city of mostly black people in the south doesn't matter much either. The American way is unfortunately geared to the individual and freedom to do what ever you please regardless of the other guy and common good - any thing like that would be kicked hard for being socialist -heaven forbid reds under the bed. It is interesting to see how the model of democracy and civilised society etc has slowly corrupted and debased over time. It will be interesting to see how the civil unrest of mass unemployment and a heavy credit burden from consumerism plays out. In all probability we can say that this is the beginning of the decline and fall of the West's industrial empire. Challenging times ahead.

I suspect that if we step back to Low Earth Orbit, what we see is that as the world grows more informed, educated & evolved, the former "skilled" jobs become just labor. That is particularly true when sensors and "skilled" logic in controllers determine how machinery operates.

Hence, operating a plastic molding machine or metal milling machine no longer has the same degree of "skill". The skills have moved elsewhere, and the workers have to move with that or be left behind.

I can truthfully say that in 40 years of designing various parts, I have never been able to sit "still". Learning is a continual process.

The higher paying jobs today all involve very computer comfortable-literate and subtlety oriented skills, and often cross area skills. Increasingly the high value jobs are going to be in new materials and processes. A lot will involve nano-particles and nano-coatings, or other molecular based or molecule thick laminates. Japan & France want the next supersonic Greyhound AirBus to be carbon-fiber and similar laminates in lots of parts.

Bo