3- to 1-phase?

I've always specified and used Square D products. They are amongst a few that are still using copper buss bars, and are of reasonably high quality. Well respected in the industry, although not cheap. What I'll describe is proper for Square D. I have no experience with other panels.

As you allude, the panel accommodates a breaker with three poles. There are three buss bars that run vertically in the panel, with the center bar the high leg when wired delta. That is the second position on the breaker panel, so if you use the three phase panel for single phase, that position may not get used. For sure it won't for 120 volt service, but there's nothing preventing you from using it for 240 volt single phase service.

The panel is wired with the three phases, a neutral, and a ground. Five wires total. Not all three phase service has the neutral. If there are no

120 volt loads, it's possible that a panel wouldn't be able to provide such service considering it's no longer legal to use the ground as a conductor, although it would work fine.

Correct

Correct.

Or do you just always use A-C phase pairs for

You need not use them in pairs. Each slot has its own breaker, single pole. You'd have a blank space in the panel where the high leg would be if it wasn't used for either 240 volts or three phase service.

All depends on the load needs and panel size. Because 1/3 of a three phase delta panel is wasted when the panel is used for 120 V service, you may find that a second panel, strictly single phase, is needed. That's what I've done with my shop. Everything is fed from the same transformer source, but it separates at the pole and goes through two different meters. That, in my case, was a good thing, because I'm on a demand meter that changes the price of power when I exceed 50 kw demand. 50 kw is the size of my induction furnace, so I'm damned glad to not have everything running through the demand meter.

Indeed, and is far more common than delta. There are some issues with delta that present a fire hazard, according to PUD (our provider). They really push the star (wye) service, which is 208 volts, but that's not in the best interest of almost anyone that runs motors. While they'll usually run on 208, they draw more amperage and run somewhat hotter. In some instances, devices don't perform as intended when they're designed around

240 volts. A friend had this problem when he moved his saw sharpening service from a delta wired shop to a wye wired shop.

Harold

Thanks for the information!

That's interesting, but I think it's more likely I'll be in a situation where there's 3-phase line power (say, a factory) with no single phase outlet close by.

Jordan

That's right - 415/240V 3 and 1 phase in Oz.

Seems like all I need to do is check for the correct voltage (using RMS meter?) before connecting, and it'll work OK. Earthed, of course.

Jordan

Simplified 3Ph from downunder.

3Ph feed is 3 X 240V Actives phases 120deg apart

3Ph mains coming in ..... 5 Core wire, 3 actives + neutral + earth

3Ph circuit ..... 415V.....4 Core wire, 3 actives + earth 1Ph circuit ..... 240V.....3 core wire, 1 active + neutral + earth

Example 3Ph/1Ph Switch board for workshop is set up as follows. Amperages used are for demonstrative purposes of balancing circuits

3 X 3Ph 415V/20A power circuits 3 X 1Ph 240V/15A power circuits 2 X 1Ph 240V/10A power circuits 1 X 1 Ph 240V/10A light Circuit

3 Phase circuits 1 ,2 , 3 (415V/20A) require no balancing as they use all 3 phases Phase A + Phase B + Phase C + Earth

Single phase circuits are balanced across all 3 phases

1Ph 240V/15A power circuit #1 Phase A + Neutral + Earth

1Ph 240V/15A power circuit #2 Phase B + Neutral + Earth

1Ph 240V/15A power circuit #3 Phase C + Neutral + Earth

1Ph 240V/10A power circuit #1 Phase A + Neutral + Earth

1Ph 240V/10A power circuit # 2 Phase B + Neutral + Earth

1Ph 240V/10A Light circuit #1 Phase C + Neutral + Earth

The idea in theory is that you should be pulling roughly simmilar current through each of three phases. Although in practice this does not always work as you will always use some circuits more than others. So as you can see it is 'standard' to run single phase of 3 phase feed.

On 26 Feb 2007 00:58:36 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, snipped-for-privacy@kcwc.com (Curt Welch) quickly quoth:

Read any good books lately, Curt?

========================================================== CAUTION: Do NOT look directly into laser with remaining eyeball! ==========================================================

That does make sense and it sounds practical as well.

I read the new Miller 2007 catalog this week. That's a good book. :) I recently read most of "Welding Technology Fundamentals" by Bowditch Bowditch and Bowditch for the two welding classes I'm taking. That's also a good book.

I'm currently reading "Consciousness Explained" by Daniel Dennett. It's good, but a bit slow - I haven't picked it up in about a month now but it's on the top of the stuff I'm reading. I found Darwin's Dangerous Idea by Dennett to be a far more interesting read. I find his views refreshing. I'm also trying to get though "Spikes, Exploring the neural code". It's mostly math which makes it fairly slow going. Not too long ago I read Dawkins' "The Selfish Gene". That's a classic. I've got Minsky's new book "The Emotion Machine" sitting in the "to be read" queue. I'm not sure if I'm going to find that very interesting or not. His SOM is a classic I read not too long ago. I've got about 20 books and a large assortment of technical papers on AI related stuff sitting to be read. Not to mention a nice backlog of Popular Science, and New Scientist, Robotics, and Scientific American, and other such magazines waiting to be read.

But sadly, nothing on political issues like global warming in the stack. :)

Right. The normal convention is to mark the High Leg with Orange tape or paint everywhere it shows up, and put it on the B phase - middle busbar. And put a big warning on the face of the panel, to try to rein in the clueless before they do something very stupid.

I've hit it a few times where a "Handyman" fixes the lights at a condo or commercial building, or adds a new circuit - and then the Management Company calls and says 'the bulbs don't last long...'

Yup - new breaker on the High Leg for the new circuit he added. "Well, there was a vacant spot, so I used it..."

Yup. Home Depot is even stocking a few variants of 3-phase 240V panels and breakers, if you want to put your hands on one to see. But most commercial gear is rated as Panelboards which gives you bolt-on breakers and a lot heavier construction. If it's mostly motor and equipment loads, you can even go larger than 42 breakers in the panel, and 400A main busses in a bolt-on panel are not too uncommon.

Sometimes you even see four-pole breakers - but the last one is a shunt trip coil for electric fryers and griddles at a restaurant, so the fire suppression system can kill the equipment power.

If it's a 3Ph Open Delta panel and you don't use up the B phase stabs as A-B or B-C for all the straight 240V 1Ph loads, you start running out of 120V (Ph-to-N) A and C phase spaces real fast.

You only have to worry about that on ranges and clothes dryers, because they DO have 120V loads on them. Or if it goes to a 4-wire

120/240V rated receptacle for portable items like welders and industrial floor buffers, because you never know what portable equipment they're liable to connect. If the receptacle has a neutral prong in it they're going to assume that it's 120V on each leg.

On new construction the clue for 120V connected loads would be there is a neutral wire and it is connected, but on existing structures (more than about 5 years old) that is NOT a reliable method - you used to run the oven light and the clock/timer from one phase to ground.

Delta service is more for industrial parks and small commercial spaces where they will need some 3-phase, but they are all smaller occupancies where 200A of 120/240V 3Ph is plenty, separate 120/240 1Ph and 277/480 3Ph services would be overkill. (And another monthly meter charge to pay.)

Getting supplied at 277/480V and running a local transformer in each unit to run the 120/240V loads is a PITA for small stores and shops, and it's more expensive on several fronts.

First, 480V switchgear is a LOT more expensive than 240V, and then you have to buy a step-down transformer and another breaker panel for each unit, and when you want to work on the 480V you have to turn off their lights and computers too.

And you have to turn it off to work on it - 240V isn't so bad (a few sparks and the main pops) but working on 480V hot is insanity...

Open Delta is very common on Condos or Apartments - they put up a big transformer (50 or 100 KVA) for all the single-phase loads in the building, and they hang a small second transformer (10 or 25 KVA) to get the third leg for one 3-phase service for the Elevator(s).

They can have one 200A 3-Phase service and panel for house loads, or on larger buildings they use a 400A or 600A 3Ph Standing Section, send a 3Ph breaker straight to the elevator machine, and send A and C phases past that to regular single-phase panels for house circuits.

More common on Condos where there's one service transformer for the whole building, and not much 240V load where people would complain about slow electric ovens and wimpy cooktops... (That's fine, most people prefer Natural Gas for that, the bills are a WHOLE lot lower.) They put in one three-phase House Meter for the elevator, three-phase disconnects, and then the different Modular Metering stacks for the units are rotated through the phases to balance the loads. First stack of meters is connected A-B, second B-C, third C-A.

Welcome to R.C.Metalworking - where if you aren't really careful you might learn something. ;-P

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So how does that work? The fire system just shorts that 4th leg to ground or puts a load on it to cause the system to trip off the power?

Thanks! Lots of good new stuff to know! I never thought about why an apartment building would need 3 phase power but the fact they have elevators and that elevators would use it is something that seems obvious. I guess the air handling systems in larger buildings (like a hotel or office building) are probably all 3 phase as well.

You might want to look at this:

This rather ingeneous system converts between two phase (quadrature) and three phase systems. What we are talking about here is single phase and three phase... Big difference...

Jerry

No, the shunt trip is electrically isolated from the rest of the breaker. They are usually 24V or 120V coils, even when the breaker is switching 480V.

The fire system has one or two Form C (SPDT or DPDT) microswitches on the initiator arm for triggering alarms and external equipment. When the fire system discharges the switch closes and sends 120V to the shunt-trip coil - the breaker has two wires sticking out like a GFCI to connect to the trip circuit. The solenoid coil of the shunt trips the breaker the same way an overload would.

If the equipment in question has a motor starter, it's far easier to wire the Normally Closed circuit of that fire-system trigger switch to drop out the starter coil. Then you don't have to go buy a special shunt trip breaker.

(Just did a paint spray booth that way - the fire system kills the starter for the exhaust fan, and the exhaust fan starter dropping out opens the auxiliary contacts and the power to the air supply cutoff solenoid, which cuts air to the spray guns. The spray air is interlocked so they can't spray without turning the booth exhaust fan on first.)

Oh! There's another oddball breaker with wires sticking out, but you won't ever see it except at gasoline service stations, to power the turbine pumps in the storage tanks - Switched Neutral Breakers.

Large motors are inherently more efficient running on 3 Phase, because it's kick-kick-kick instead of kick-coast-kick-coast.

And with the constant starting and stopping of elevator pump motors, they live far longer on 3-phase - KISS, no starting capacitors or start switches.

It would make sense for Condos to send 3-Ph 208V up to the units, if only for the AC Condensing Unit compressor motors - since every little bit of added energy efficiency helps reduce overall demand. They even used to make special sub-panels just for this purpose that had one or two 3-Ph breaker slots at the top of the buss, and the rest were regular 1-Ph...

But some power utilities have this absolute neurotic phobia against supplying any sort of 3-Ph power for end-use by a (Gasp!) residential customer.

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Yeah, very neat. I had never heard of that.

I think that it converts electricity to two-phase (four wire), not single phase (two wire).

i

Ah, so the fire control system has to simply send the correct voltage to cause it to trip. Simple enough.

It's even better than that. I just learned about this in the past year. I never would have guessed it.

With single phase, the torque goes up and down with the AC cycle as you say. But with 3 phase, the back and forth forces sum and the result is a constant torque. Not just smoother, but actually constant (at least in theory - in practice I think the motors are not perfectly linear so there is some small variation in the torque).

Here's a simple animated graphic from wikipedia that shows how the three vector forces sum to produce a constant rotating field - the end of the three arrows produces a constant rotating vector of fixed length (aka fixed torque):

This also works with only 2 phases 90 degrees apart. It produces the same constant torque either way. But to deliver 2 phase power would require 4 wires (2 for each phase). Or, if it was cut down to 3 wires by making one side of each phase a common, it produces a higher amount of current in the common wire. It will have to carry 1.414 times more current than the two phase wires. This means for power delivery, you would have to use either 4 wires of the same size, or 3 wires with a larger wire for the common. But with 3 phase, where each wire acts as a common between two phases, only 3 wires are needed and all 3 wires carry the exact same current load which gives the advantage of constant torque motors with only 3 equal sized wires.

Yep. (Anyone for another single vs two phase thread???).BG

Don Young

Home shop types are known to buy surface grinders that are designed around three phase motors, then change them to single phase because they lack three phase service. Big mistake in many cases. The uneven power pulses translate into surface finish problems that are virtually impossible to eliminate.

Three phase motors are not only smoother, they are also much cheaper to build because of their simplicity.

Harold

On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 05:18:00 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, "Harold and Susan Vordos" quickly quoth:

Are there differences in this regard between static and dynamic

3-phase converters, 'Arry?