Design for the dump?

The basic problem is defining what is means to "be designed to be repaired". I own an electronic assembly service and we build everything electronic from cables to circuit boards to complete units ready to ship to the end user. Everything we build can be repaired, and sometimes we do have to repair them. We can do that because we have the documentation, test equipment, and knowledge to do it. We do not have documentation and test fixtures to repair and test other companies devices. So, most consumer products are not repairable because no one but the manufacture has that ability.

Unlike the radios and TV sets of the 1940-60's, the electronic manufactures do not release documentation to repair their devices, nor do they have spare or replacement parts kits.

We get calls every week asking if we can repair some instrument or device. A number of calls are from people that think they have traced a problem to a burned resistor or a connector that is broken. When we explain that a burned resistor is a symptom of the problem and not the cause, they begin to understand why our shop rate is $50 per hour, but only work on devices we have actually built.

The only case where we have been able to help someone was a call several years ago from an airplane mechanic from a small airport about

50 miles South of our plant. He had a plane stuck at the little airport because several diodes had opened and he couldn't fly it that way. We found diodes that would work temporarily for him and just gave them to him.

The whole idea of repairable consumer electronics is based on ignorance of what is involved.

Paul

KD7HB wrote: ...

Yeah, nowadays it's cheaper to throw it away anyway.

But when I was your age, stuff actually _was_ consumer-repairable, but consumers were a lot smarter back then.

Thanks, Rich

. We can do that because we

What is surprising to be is that the electronic manufacturers do not release the documentation. I would think it would not cost a lot to do so. No actual printing needed, just release the information via a web site. I agree it would not be a profit center, but it would influence me as to what to buy. I currently have a digital voltmeter that has the AC millivolt range not working. I opened it up and found the pcb has a Mastech label. I contacted Mastech but got no answer to my query for a schematic. So black mark against Mastech. Can't even get information on calibration although there are several pots visible on the pcb.

Dan

7 minutes 47 seconds of nothing new. Basically advocating "take back", where manufacturers are responsible for product disposal at its end-of-life. 'Course what that would really mean is a big jump in the original price to cover the handling, transportation, and disposal at the end. And a deposit, so the consumer actually returns it, rather than just more-easily dumping it. Naive.

Bob

Yes, between 1986 and 1996 I repaired 11,000 VCRs, by 1995 I saw the price was getting so low that it would not be long and I wouldn't get a fair price to repair them. My thought process was, move to Florida or get into repair of DVD players, (they were the new thing). I moved to Florida, I'm glad I did, the price of DVDs came down quick. MikeK

Consumers aren't stupid, just unarmed.

You can turn lots of dumb consumers into smart consumers. Just add availability of parts and information. Ferinstance:

• My Palm PDA got a new lease when I replaced the screen and digitizer. It was quick and easy.

• My coffee maker works like new after I flushed the spilled grounds out of the heater tube.

• My truck clutch works a *lot* better after I replaced the hydraulics.

• My rotary hammer functions once more after I located and repaired a disconnected wire.

• Summers are much more pleasant now that I replaced all the occluded rafter end vent screens with new ones.

• The TPMS in my car works properly once again after I readjusted the tire pressure to factory spec and reset the trigger threshold in the computer.

And lots of other things that I don't recall at the moment.

Note that in all but one of these cases, the OEM wasn't directly involved in sourcing either the replacement part or the documentation necessary to do a successful repair. (In the TPMS case, the problem was *caused* by a Toyota dealer repair manager!)

--Winston

I fixed a small MP3 player once, by re-soldering a power switch.

i

One comment states: "Things like LCD panels themselves are simply impossible to repair, period. It'd be like repairing the inside of an old-fashioned CRT. Isn't gonna happen."

Then no one ever rebuilt picture tubes?

wrote... What is surprising to be is that the electronic manufacturers do not release the documentation. I would think it would not cost a lot to do so. No actual printing needed, just release the information via a web site. I agree it would not be a profit center, but it would influence me as to what to buy. I currently have a digital voltmeter that has the AC millivolt range not working. I opened it up and found the pcb has a Mastech label. I contacted Mastech but got no answer to my query for a schematic. So black mark against Mastech. Can't even get information on calibration although there are several pots visible on the pcb.

===================

No surprise, they make money buy selling you a new one, not helping you fix the one you've got!

I had much the same reaction when trying to get a schematic for an ABB inverter (an industrial product, you'd think it'd be supported for a while after end-of-sale) so I could get the LCD display/programmer panel working - they suggested I buy a new one...

I thought "what the hell, it conly cost me £20" and ended up with it back in full working order and a nice new blue-lit LCD display: it cost me a few hours head-scratching and a few inches of solder plus £2 for a new LCD module to replace the smashed one (from a nice Chinese gent. on Ebay). Now to find all the tiny screws to put it all back in the box ;)

Compare that to Miller welders, operator and maintenance manuals for download on their site, dating back quite a few decades...

I doubt I'd buy an ABB again, unless it was a) cheap, b) known working (and local, so the shipper didn't drop it from a great height!), c) supported with documentation.

This is something that really bugs me, the amount of hardware that gets scrapped for want of some basic, easily available information or spares support - not everyone is going to be willing to trawl the 'net, look up components from part numbers (where they exist), research *how the damn thing works*, but if the process were made easier, maybe we could halve (or better) the amount of waste electrical / electronic equipement that has to go through hazardous waste processing to landfill every year? Having worked as an electronics tech. for the air force, I know how long things can be kept running if you have the know-how - up until the Y2K rendered the (2-digit) clock a liability, they were still using 1970's VAX PDP-11's in critical applications...

Anyway, rant over, just my ha'pence worth :)

Dave H.

To a large extent, yes - but if companies were REQUIRED to make devices repairable it would do away with the solvent welded (or heat welded) plastic cases in favour of screwed together cases - possibly even using non-toxic non-plastic materials, such as aluminum or even wood that could be opened without destroying the, to get at the components. If the circuit boards had to be replaceable, and the replacement boards had to be available for exchange so the boards could be repaired, and thereby actually recycled, the design would need to change from multiple boards soldered together to boards that plug together (like most used to in the past) Self diagnostics could be built into most designs that would indicate which subassembly had failed. The big problem is, this would make the devices more expensive to BUILD. Which means either the profit margin would drop or the selling price would go up substantially.

This would mean fewer would be sold. If they could be fxed, even fewer would be sold - and that , along with the lower profit margins, would reduce the earnings of these companies, lowering their stock value, which would really piss off the stock-holders.

The economy as we know it would have to totally re-adjust itself - we'd be back to the sixties.

The devices would also have to become larger, or contain less features in the same size, because miniturization and repairability do not particularly work together.

Although repairable devices are possible, I don't think the world is ready for what would be required to make them the "norm".

People of 2010 don't want to go back to the 'sixties - even if, when all is said and done, we'd all be better off for it.

I've never heard of it done. Have you?

Thanks, Rich

On Nov 14, 12:15=A0pm, "Dave H."

But they do not. Mastech makes lots of DMM's, but I am not buying another one made by them until I can at least get a cal procedure.

I had no problem installing a new LCD display in my Fluke DMM,

There used to be advertisements in magazines as Science and Mechanics for the equipment to rebuild picture tubes. As I remember you replaced the entire gun assembly, pumped it down, and sealed off the evacuation port.

Dan

Used to be able to buy rebuilt tubes from a lot of suppliers.

Yes, it used to be fairly common.

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

Part of this is because designing stuff to be repaired is difficult. But part of this is because one hour of repair time in the US costs many man-days of labor in the country where the electronics got manufactured.

As the Chinese and Indians Malaysians and whoever get into wage-parity with us, it'll be more sensible to spend an hour of our time instead of just chucking something and spending man-days of some Chinese guy's time.

Then the market will start demanding reparable stuff, and you'll see it happen. It'll just be basic market forces at work.

Three kinds of rebuild:

(1) the cathode could be 'outgassed' aka 'rejuvenated' (just a bit of overheating, and it made the tube a bit brighter for a while).

(2) the innards could be re-welded. Tektronix, it is said, got a $50k industrial laser, and on its first day in operation reworked enough storage-scope electrodes by welding through the glass envelope, to repay the full investment. There were also techniques for adjust-using-gravity then spotweld by applying high current to the external wires.

(3) the neck can be sawed off and a new electron gun spliced in. Sounds drastic, but replacement electron guns for (for instance) electron microscopes are a common maintenance item.

Duh. Most replacment picture tubes were rebuilt. A common CRT was $39 rebuilt, and $119 with new glass. If they were on sale, some rebuilts were $19.95. If you didn't know what to look for you couldn't tell the difference in new or rebuilt. A rebuild CRT had another ridge on the neck, near the bell. Some had two or more, if the glass dud was rare.

Some things that -are- still repairable are usually replaced. Who has recut a faucet seat, changed a CPU or rebuilt a carburetor or starter motor?

jsw