Pulling headstock spindle on lathe

My lathe is throwing oil at me from behind the chuck. I like this lathe a lot. I've been using it for a couple of decades. I'd like to
get that oil slinging problem fixed.
There are no seals in the headstock; it uses a "labyrinth" slinger method of oil management.
One guy I talked to asked if I ever turn plastic. (Yes, I do, fairly often) He said he'd seen this before: fine delryn or nylon swarf somehow gets in behind the chuck and plugs an internal drain hole.
The lathe is an Enterprise 1550 made by Mysore Kirloskar Electric in India.
(This is probably where Larry Jaques insensitively and rudely asks what I did to my Kirloskar to make it sore.)
It (the lathe, not my Kirloskar) looks a lot like a Clausing Colchester, and I think that the maker had a relationship with Colchester at one time back in the early '70s. I've been told that this method of headstock oil management is used on some Colchesters.
I located the nuts that preload the spindle bearings, made a spanner and got them off. The gears on the spindle in the headstock slide freely, now that grub screws and circlips have been removed. From looking at the drawings (I have the manual) I can see no reason why the D1-4 camlock spindle shouldn't just slide out toward the tailstock so I can get in there to clean out a plugged drain hole. But I can't get the damned spindle to budge. I've pried on it and hit it a few times with a big brass hammer.
I thought I had a professional on deck to come help me with this but it appears that he's flaked on me.
Any informed or experienced ideas or suggestions? I really don't want to barf up the spindle bearings.
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On Wed, 03 Jun 2015 20:56:17 -0500, Don Foreman

Moi? <har!> I'd likely wonder why Oskar was curled, too.

Lathe? Isn't that the horizontal kinda doohickey with the spinny part on the left? Is there any way to get an air hose inside to attempt blowing out the swarf from inside the gearbox? Some of those old boxes had some extra room in them, while others were completely stuffed. I'm guessing it doesn't have the split case where you can lift the whole top half out of the way. That would make it too easy. Chucks can get really wound up on the spindles, so sometimes it takes a whole lotta torque to unwind 'em. Have you tried strapping something firmly to the chuck and whoppin' on that? (I'm sorry if I'm getting too technical for ya.)
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/tooling-parts-accessories-sale-wanted/1981-enterprise-1550-mkl-lathe-manual-223545/ Jeeze, bigarse beastie, innit?
And make bloody well sure that there isn't a retaining screw in the very center of the chuck, like a drill chuck. That'd turn ya pink. DAMHIKT

Condolences.

Good call. Heaven forfend that happening!
--
It takes as much energy to wish as to plan.
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On Wed, 03 Jun 2015 19:52:26 -0700, Larry Jaques

Yes. It's a machine used to convert round bar stock to small cylindrical scrap very efficiently.

The whole works is inside the gearbox, behind a big gear that's less than an inch from the chuck-side bulkhead. The drain hole goes from just under the bearing down to below the level of the oil, slanting from right to left going down. If I could blow it out from the bottom I'd blow the swarf right into the bearing. That wouldn't harm the bearing if it's delryn swarf, but it'd eventually get washed right back into the drain hole.

Correct and yeah.

I know what you mean. I have a 9" Logan that has a 1-1/2 x 8 threaded spindle like a South Bend, had a chuck stuck on that one a couple of times. Engage back gear, stick 2 x 4 thru the chuck jaws ...
There is no chuck mounted. It's a D1-4 camlock spindle, not a threaded one. Chucks can't get wound on tight.

I'm keeping up OK so far. I guess that would be easy enough to do since the chucks are on the floor, but I'm not sure how that'd help... <G>

A 9" it ain't -- but it's every bit as precise as my 9" Logan and a hell of a lot more rigid. Chatter? Wha's dat? Don' get no chatter on this machine, uh UH ol' Son. It's not quite as "feely" as a 9" Logan or SB but I have no problem making little teensy parts on it.
I inheirited it from Mary's dad. Well, actually, from her mom when her dad died. I still think about old Bernie every time I use that machine, which was several times a week when it was working right. He was a good friend and fishin' bud.

Left hand screw at that, right? Been there, done that, got the tee shirt.
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On Thu, 04 Jun 2015 00:16:37 -0500, Don Foreman

I see them do that to wood, as well. Odd choice of hobbies, I must say.

Arrrgh! Before I get any more old arn I'm going to think about the ease of (or lack thereof) rebuildability of said arn in the process.

I physically cringed when I saw that pic. It's total rebuild time, Don.

I've seen the cover off and a tubafore sticking in the gears, too. Whatever it takes to multiply torque and solidify the machine prior to that simple twisting motion. And after all that, you may hear a soft and simple <tink> to indicate that it broke loose inside. That's such a satisfying sound, innit?

That's very good.

Well, g'luck with it.

Those are always fun, too. But chucks are almost always RHT, lest they spin off whenever you throw the ON switch. The engineers got that one right. I had a friend in high school who had a tiny old British car. (can't think of the make right now) 3 Whitworth lug nuts held each wheel on, and they were LHT on the left side of the car.
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On Thu, 04 Jun 2015 06:41:15 -0700, Larry Jaques

What pic?
The lathe works fine, just throws a little oil. Doesn't need a rebuild, just needs an oil passage cleaned out.

The chucks screw on a right hand thread, but the socket head cap screws that hold them on is often a left hand thread -- so such inertial torque as might loosen the chuck serves to tighten the bolt. Example: Milwaukee electric drill http://www.milwaukeetool.com/power-tools/corded/3002-1
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On Wednesday, June 3, 2015 at 10:11:49 PM UTC-7, Don Foreman wrote:

There might be an alternative to teardown; sulfuric acid (sometimes available as drain cleaner) might attack the plastic well enough to just rinse a clog away, assuming you can get SOME flow to the blockage. It won't attack machine parts much, just organics (rinse afterward with your dirtiest ready-for-recycling oil).
But, takeapart is SO instructive, maybe that's the best longterm solution.
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Huh? Exactly how would one run rod stock through the head in that configuration?
Um... Larry... L A T H E --- not "Consumer hand drill".
Lloyd
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On Thu, 04 Jun 2015 05:50:51 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"

Details, details... <g>
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On Wed, 03 Jun 2015 20:56:17 -0500, Don Foreman

Greetings Don, Since you have removed the nut (probably no. 6 in your manual) at the rear of the spindle, the one that is located outside of the gearbox on the left side under a cover, and nothing moves, then you may need to remove the bearing retainer on the outside of the gearbox on the right side. This retainer is held on with 3 cap screws and is located directly behind the D1 mounting face. It seems like I had to do this once on a larger lathe of similar design. Eric
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On Thu, 04 Jun 2015 09:13:38 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@whidbey.com wrote:

A cover directly behind the D1 mounting face is indeed secured with 3 cap screws -- but there's no way to get it past the D1 mounting face. It's captive there until the spindle is removed. Clearance between the back of the D1 face and the wall of the gearbox is about 0.078".
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On Fri, 05 Jun 2015 22:33:31 -0500, Don Foreman

I know Don. Once the cover is loose the spindle, with the cover and bearing, slides out. Then access to a retainer is possible and the spindle is drawn from the headstock bearing. This is how I did it on a smiliar lathe years ago and it looks like your lathe is the same, just smaller. Eric
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snipped-for-privacy@whidbey.com fired this volley in

It only slides out if the inner race of the 'back' bearing (the one on the end you're trying to push IN) isn't frozen to the spindle.
I've taken the spindles out of some very old lathes. Those with Timken bearings instead of bushings almost always resist moving that inner race out to the end... they're corroded-on -- which they would not be if they had been moved and adjusted for tension occasionally. But most folks never touch 'spindle tension' once the lathe works once.
There's almost always a ring clamp or some other device to prevent the spindle from 'migrating' in the inner races. Sometimes it's only a shoulder on the spindle. Sometimes it's a ring-clamp, set-screw into the spindle, etc. Remember that just slipping a spindle through two bearings won't hold it laterally.
Keep in mind that 'only' shoulders on the spindle cannot possibly accommodate bearing wear unless the outer races are somehow adjustable. And that's not usually the case. It's usually the case that there's a jam-nut or 'jam bushing' working against the inner race to keep it and the rollers in intimate contact with the outer race.
This is most often a key-slotted nut that engages only the inner race, pushing it to close the distance between the two ends.
And THAT means that there must be a thrust device at BOTH ends to keep the spindle from moving back and fro in the inner races.
Lloyd
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"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" <lloydspinsidemindspring.com> fired this volley in

PS... and that thrust device is often the nuts themselves... not to leave that out.
Lloyd
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On Sat, 06 Jun 2015 13:35:57 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"

By "laterally" do you mean in a direction parallel to or along the spindle axis?

Let's see if I understand what you're saying. According to the drawing, there are tapered roller bearings on each end, with the tapers facing in opposite directions, much like the axel on a trailer. The drawing indicates that there is a shoulder on the spindle that engages the inner race of the chuck-side bearing. The outer race of that bearing bears against the cast headstock housing.
On the other end of the spindle, the left-hand end from the operator's perspective, the outer race of that bearing bears against the housing. The inner race is in contact with a spacer or washer that appears to be ground on both sides. Behind that is a thrust nut, another spacer, and another nut that I'm assuming is a jam nut.
The directions of the tapers in the bearings is such that when the spindle nut is tightened, putting axial force on the inner race of the left-hand bearing with the spindle in tension, the races press against the rollers -- so wear could be taken up by adjusting the thrust nut.
Am I reading you right?
I strongly doubt that wear is an issue here. The performance of the lathe has been and is entirely satisfactory except for the nuisance oil leak.
I could believe that there might be some corrosion between spindle and an inner race -- or, it could just be a very snug fit. I would expect that a very snug fit would be necessary to ensure precision performance, so the spindle is always, always in radial contact with the inner races.
A local professional has returned my call on Friday. I missed it, but I'll try him tomorrow to see what advice he may have. I am extremely reluctant to pound on anything with a big hammer, but it may be that the next step must be to see if a bit of hydraulic push might get things moving without breaking anything.
Meanwhile, I went fishin' today. Caught my supper and a very pleasant afternoon with an old colleague and friend. He got skunked. Hey, he should take me fishin' more often, might learn something! That, in fact, was part of the objective for today's outing. Well, I found and showed him a "spot" on his lake that he didn't know about, showed him what works for me, but learning to catch finicky largemouth bass with a plastic worm isn't done in a day or a week. It requires an investment of time in the boat. (oh dear!)
When doing my solitary research I use only non-polluting, conservation-minded, lead-free grenades...
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On Sat, 06 Jun 2015 10:57:22 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@whidbey.com wrote:

I've removed the three cap screws. Spindle still won't move.
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On 06/06/15 04:33, Don Foreman wrote:

Sounds like my Harrison M300, from looking at the parts diagram that ring has to have the fasteners removed before the spindle can be removed as it clamps the outer race of the front bearing in place and the inner race won't pass through it, fortunately the retaining screws for the ring lie outside the OD of the D1-4 spindle mount on the M300 so are easy to access. I have had the spindle out of my Kerry 1140 and it is the same but the socket screws are just accessible in the locking ring grooves of the L00 retaining ring, same front bearing arrangement but different spindle chuck mount.
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On 6/3/2015 9:56 PM, Don Foreman wrote:

I tore down my lathe headstock once. I forget why.
Unbeknownst to me, the spindle pulley had sheared its key, jamming it on the spindle. Many whacks with a brass hammer got it off, without too much damage. Afterwards I noticed that the left end had been deformed by the brass hammer! A vivid lesson in brass work hardening. Fortunately, the deformation didn't affect anything but my pride.
So, be careful with that brass hammer. (I now only use lead hammers on machines.)
Bob
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On Thu, 04 Jun 2015 13:16:16 -0400, Bob Engelhardt

Roger that!
I thought I'd try a few whacks hoping to get lucky. Didn't happen. Now I think the only "safe" approach is hydraulics.
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On Wednesday, June 3, 2015 at 9:50:44 PM UTC-4, Don Foreman wrote:

Not meaning to be trite about this, but unless there is some other reason f or dismantling the head, or unless there is a huge amount of oil being slun g, why not just bend up some sheet metal (or a beer can) to catch the oil b efore it hits you? Life is way too short to spend it trying to make old mac hines perfect IMHO.
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On Sat, 6 Jun 2015 06:01:33 -0700 (PDT), rangerssuck

Others have expressed similar opinion, humble and otherwise. One guy, a retired millwright, after looking at my situation asked, "How old are you, Don?" I told him. Not quite as old as he, as it turns out. He grinned and asked, "Don, how much oil do you think that thing can sling in the time you have left?"
We laughed, adjourned for lunch, and then shared a very pleasant afternoon shooting at his range.
If all else fails, I could indeed contrive an oil shield and collector. Such a kludge might offend my delicate sensibilities for awhile, but I agree with you that it would be a rational approach. But I'd really like to have my lathe work like it should because it has been such an enjoyable machine to have and use for many years. It's been one of the "capability machines" that have enabled me to realize what I might devise in my mind into actual physical reality in real metal or plastic or whatever. The trash can enjoys my misadventures as much as I do. There's always Mark II ... and Mark III ... and so on. More time in the shop? Oh... dear!
I do NOT want a 3D printer; I spent a lot of enjoyable time teaching myself to machine and weld, and I continue to thoroughly enjoy those activities.
Nothing I make is nearly as important as the joy I get from making it or another gets from having it made just for him or her.
Fortunately, being retired and finally very happily adjusted to being a widower and movin' on with good life, I can be and do whatever and however the hell I want -- which means that nothing says I have to be rational in everything (or anything) I do with my days. Only thing I must do is enjoy them. Having fun is job 1, nothing is urgent.
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