Do you need "real time" for motor control

We've been debating about "real time" response for motor control. In the
right context, I don't believe it does:
A mobile robot with non-zero mass.
A mobile robot moving at a non-zero velocity.
The motor system is based on servo motors, not steppers.
Now, the robot can not stop infinitely quick. It must stop with a measured
deceleration. If it attempts to stop too quickly it can skid or fall over.
Correct?
What is the "real" stopping period of a robot? It depends on the surface,
the wheels, the shape of the robot, the speed of the robot. The truth is
that it can easily be at least one second.
Now, a real time system is nice, but it is not required to control the motor
speed. As long as you can predict trends (error increasing or decreasing),
factor time between samples, and can respond reasonably within the motors
ability to accelerate. The hard core time requirement of an RTOS is not
nessisary. This is not to say that the system can go without responding for
too long, but a well ballanced system's response fluctuates but does not
stop. A properly configured Linux or a BSD running on a PC can operate
within these parameters.
As for one person's argument about safety, I'm not sure if .01 seconds makes
a huge difference in stopping distance, but I don't think it is a real
problem.
Reply to
mlw
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Moving at just 4 mph, in just .01 seconds that robot moves about 3/4 of an inch (.704 inches to be exact). To get something moving that fast, youd have to drop it from ~1.5-2 feet from the ground. Take a 50 pound somethin or other with a nice edge (assuming a 50 pound robot, with batteries and motors and all) and drop it onto your shin from ~1.5-2 feet above it. See if it moves your shin 3/4 of an inch. I guarantee those bones are not 3/4 of an inch thick. In other words, it will take much less than .01 seconds for whatever you dropped to travel through said bone.
If you have bumper switches, say, 3 inches in front of your robot...they can compess a total f 3 inches if needed. As soon as they touch something, they send a signal that takes only a nanosecond or so (a few at the most) to trigger emergency braking. reverse the motors. Even if it cant stop inside that .01 seconds, and can even only half it's speed in the time it takes for it to travel those three inches of the bumpers, you take it's impact force down to almost 1/4. Possibly even more, depending on your braking system. So putting that into the above experiment, now drop a 12 pound thing onto your other leg (since your first one is broken) and commence screaming and swearing and possibly bleeding, then limp away on leg #2.
Now do you think .01 seconds matters in safety?
Reply to
Andy P
Assuming the robot goes 4 miles per hour, that's a pretty fast clip for a robot, but OK.
Not sure I know why this is here.
Yes, very dramatic but a pretty silly argument. You are using a higher presision than you really have.
0.01 seconds, in a real world environment, is beyond practical measurement. What triggers the event that causes the robot to stop? Surely some real-world event, be it a bumper or a human hand hitting a switch, could be affected 0.01 by wind currents from an open window.
Again, your bumper material what is it? If it is compressable, it will need to compress some amount before it can trigger some sort of switch. How long does that take? Does temperature affect this substance? If it is colder will the bumber be less compressable and thus have faster response time? How about on a hot day? will the material be less rigid and thus take longer to compress enough to trigger the switch?
If you put the switch on the outside of the bumper, how much travel does it have before a connection. The bumper will still need to compress some amount before it provides enough force to trip the switch. What sort of debounce capacitor do you have?
You are working with precisions that are not realistic for the environment.
I still think its fine.
Reply to
mlw
Wouldn't any mathematical analysis be pointless until you have built your robot so you can plug in the actual figures?
Start with your requirement that it *must* all be controlled from your Mini-ITX board and design the robot and its actions around any limitations that may result.
I would suggest you build the robot and see what happens. If it fails to stop in time worry about it then. The solution might be simply to move the "whiskers" or "bumpers" out a bit further from the robot. Maybe when contact is made a little extra spring in the bumpers will do the stopping by itself?
It may be a matter of simply setting your sensors to trigger at a safe distance. This could even be velocity dependent. As you go faster the bumpers could move out in front. Or a more practical method using light have the angle of the beam change with velocity to detect an obstacle at a safe distance for that velocity?
With some ic logic you could arrange it so that *any* combinations of contacts desired would disconnect the motor/s automatically until over ridden by the main program.
Just go for it, forget about the doubters. If it turns out to require a uC you can always add that later?
- John
Reply to
JGCASEY
Just an aside, um, wouldn't it make sense to design the system before you build it?
While I disagree with he conclusions drawn by the post, I appreciate the work done. It is exactly the sort of up front work one should do.
If this were a business, I would call that a product requirement.
It is in the process, but it never hurts to do the design up front.
Reply to
mlw
Maybe if you have a robot that is only an inch long and could actually stop in .704 inches it might make scense. Scale this up to a robot railroad locomotive moving at 4mph and .01 sec is probably plenty of time. You must be thinking of only those little things that skitter about on the floor.
Reply to
Si Ballenger
Yes, you do need "real time" for servo motors. The sample period of a servo system is an implicit part of the math. If the period varies, you must compensate the measurements. Even with a hardware assisted sample period, a variable delay in updating the motor drive will cause loop tuning problems.
Bob
Reply to
MetalHead
There are two aspects to consider. The one you mentioned is a response time issue of the robot. One obvious example is for safety. The problem with non-real time control here is that response is unpredictable. Is the response to bumper switch activation .000005 seconds or 2.5 seconds? Shutting down the motors in 5 microseconds might mean you stop in half a second, but more importantly, not shutting down the motors instantly means you collide with the obstacle under full power. That does a lot more damage than colliding under no power. Think of bumping into a chair and it moves a half-inch or so. Now think of running into the chair and pushing it across the floor and right through the china cabinet.
The other is control signal generation. These have varying demands depending. Lots of small robots use R/C servos. The timing of the pulse needs to be within the range of 1ms to 2ms with around microsecond resolution, and repeated with a period of around 20 ms. The repeat period is not so critical, but the pulse duration is. If the timing constraints are not met, you get jitter.
Direct h-bridge control requires the ability to generate the PWM waveform - typical square wave of fixed period and varying duty cycle. The duty cycle determines the power across the motor. The frequency is pretty important - there's not one size fits all for frequency, but in general, higher is better, both from a control point of view and also that lower frequencies tend to make the motors whine and can be quite noisy and irritating. Failure to meet these timing requirements also is bad - your motors don't do what their told.
Typical microcontrollers handle this latter with specialized hardware support to generate the PWM signals. Typically it involves configuring a hardware timer, configuring pins to do the control, and then plugging the duty cycle into an "output compare" register. After that, the signal is totally hardware generated and the MCU spends 0 processor cycles generating the wave form. PC's typically don't have this hardware - you won't find it on your parallel port or general purpose I/O card. Your choice is to add hardware to do it, or generate the signals using software. Generating them with software is going to be difficult to meet the timing requirements to control multiple motors.
Both are real-time requirements, just at different levels of control. I think you've been thinking of mostly the former, but I think a lot of the folks responding to you about microcontrollers have been thinking of the latter. At least I have, but I can't speak for everyone.
-Brian
Reply to
Brian Dean
Up to a point. Things never work for me as I plan them anyway as there is always something I didn't take into account, like the rocking tank base I mention in another thread.
It really depend how good your model is. Ultimately you will have to build and test the real thing. Why not just go ahead and do just that, particularly as you feel it will work.
My impression is your requests for input result in people saying you can't and you saying you can...
Often though you might be planning for things that never eventuate and neglect things you never thought of. Those that know, never do, to find out how to do it anyway.
That was the point of my suggestions. Ok, so what if you were wrong and the post was right. Maybe there is a way around it anyway. Necessity is the mother of invention. If the time to stop is unknown than give yourself a system that is adaptable to that. Just as you whiz along the road in your car your obstacle detection system is planning well ahead. You don't wait until your touch sensors signal your head going through the front screen window after hitting a tree before you take evasive action. This whole .01 second thing may not be relevant if the software is smart and the obstacle sensors long distance.
That was the point I made in another post as regards an intelligent system working around the limitations of the hardware.
- John
Reply to
JGCASEY
Well, there are always unplanned circumstances, but a well engineered product isn't hit by many.
Well, I like to know something is going to work before I spend the money on parts and time building.
I never asked anyone "if something could work," as I've done the engineering first. When I have asked questions, they have been specific "which would be better" types of questions, but alas, people have ignored the question and again said it couldn't or shouldn't be done.
A good engineer tends to have fewer unplanned circumstances.
The post was not right. I proved it wasn't. Number don't lie. In the case of a mobile robot, 0.01 seconds is not an "real" number. If your robot is moving a 4 miles per hour and makes contact with a wall or barrier, 0.01 seconds isn't going to make one bit of difference because in the physical world there is so much slop, that if it didn't come from the robot, it would come from the temperature, the angle the robot hits a barrier, or what ever. There are too many factors involved to properly calculate.
The real issue is to not hit the barrier.
Time to stop can be known, only to a point. You have an unpredictable surface and tire ware, just to name a couple factors, that could easily affect the stopping distance.
This debate isn't about the system be adaptible or not, it is about whether or not you need a "reat time" OS to control the motors.
Reply to
mlw
Why?
Suppose this:
while(1) { gettimeofday(&tvCurrent,NULL); if(!encoder.Update()) { errors++; continue; } unsigned long elapsed = ((tvCurrent.tv_sec - tvStart.tv_sec)*1000000)+ (tvCurrent.tv_usec - tvStart.tv_usec);
int speedX = pidX.CalcPID( ScaleMovement(encoder.GetEncoderValue(0), elapsed));
tvStart = tvCurrent; }
Why does this have a problem?
Reply to
mlw
2.5 seconds is unacceptable. Assume no greater than two quanta, say 0.02 seconds, which means on average you can expect 0.1 seconds response time. In real life on a system without competing high priority processes, it is usually MUCH less.
Again, how much precision are you using? Microseconds? How think is your bumper? What's it made of? Actual physical switch response time? Nature of the surface on which you are runing. Tread ware of the wheels. There are so many factors, 0.01, hell, even 0.05 seconds isn't going to help you.
This isn't a small robot, 25~40 lbs.
What makes you think I'm timing the PWM?
I am using an analog signal from a D/A converter and sending that to a PWM motor amplifier.
Don't need it.
Or use a ramp generator and some comparitors for $3.00
A lot of people responding have strong feelings about the subject, but not a lot of strong information. They make assumptions and work from their assumptions.
Take for instance, ".000005 seconds or 2.5 seconds?" clearly you know that 2.5 seconds is out of the question, but you don't think that I would have thought about that. It would have been better for you to ask "How will you manage response time? What is your maximum response time?"
To which I would reply, "well, I've been doing some tests on the PC, and under load, a single high priority task has never seen more than 0.02 latency variation." Which is about to be expected.
The real problem is device driver interrupt routines, these need to be inspected for quality and how long they diable interupts.
Reply to
mlw
I think there is a slight misconseption here: real time doesn't mean fast. It means predictable worst-case behavior. I.e. you have an upper bound on the delay in which you react to input. I think in that sense all robot control systems *have* to be real-time.
Now, for specificly control loops for servos: if you go with traditional control loop theory and implementation (read PID loop), your loop delay is very critical. In the complex frequency domain that delay will be turned into a constantly growing phase-shift by the frequency-axes. As you probably know all stable control loops must have less than unity gain at the 180deg. phase point. Since the loop delay adds an additional phase-shift that grows as the frequency grows, it can make your control loop unstable pretty quickly. And even if it does not, since your 180deg. point gets to a lower frequency point your ability to control the device will degrade. I mean the control-loop error will be biger for step-function input signals. In this sense just sampling the inputs and the outputs (implementing a PID loop in SW) adds a loop delay of at least one sample-period.
My experiments show that if you want to have an agile PID control loop with a small D.C motor (540 type R/C car motor) you would need a control-loop frequency of at least 100Hz.
Another important factor for control loops is that the periodicty of the updates must be fairly precise. You might be able to control with aperiodic sampling but the theory for that is significantly more complex. If you just run a PID loop with the asumption of peridodic sampling whan it is in fact aperiodic, you interoduce additional noise to your control signal. In other words clock-jitter in the sampled control loop directly transfers to output noise.
Regards, Andras Tantos
Reply to
Andras Tantos
That is exactly right.
Not so. PID has nothing to do with a fixed delta T.
That assumes that the motor is more responsive than the worst case sample rate.
OK, no problem I have a bigger electric motor that is much less responsive than a small DC motor, and my average sample rate is 100HZ.
Not true.
A lot of people are confusing PWM generation with PID calculation. I have an external PWM generator, and it is updated at about 100HZ. += 0.01 seconds.
Reply to
mlw
Snipped much content...
Every control loop has a delay from when the measurement was taken to when the action upon that measurement reaches the controlled device. This delay time can be critical for the stability of the control loop. You're right it has nothing to do with PID loops. It has to do with *all* control loops, including PID loops. For continous time control loops the delay is usually rather small compared to the other time constants in the loop and that's why it's often disregarded. For digital control loops however the delay must be at least one sample period, which can in fact be in the same order of magnitude as other time constants in the loop. If that is the case, than the additional phase-shift from the sampling delay can be rather substantial. In other words: your asumption that the discrete time implementation of the control loop is a good approximation of the continous time equivalent circuit is not true any more. And digital PID control loops have this assumption.
Yes. See above.
You can do non-periodic sampling but the customary theory assumes periodic sampling. You would probably have the invent your own control loops for that. You almost certainly can not use a traditional PID loop there. But if you have references to the contrary, I would be interested to read about it.
No, I'm not. PWM generation is just a way of going from the digital to the analog domain. A D/A converter if you wish with poor anti-aliasing characteristics. I'm talking about the whole control loop, from beginning to end.
Regards, Andras Tantos
Reply to
Andras Tantos
If it exceeds a duration which can't be controlled or is unaccounted for.
Yes, my argument is the assumption that a fixed delta T is required.
More or less that is true.
Why? If you could control a motor accurately with a 50hz sample rate, why would a variable rate between 400hz and 50hz be a problem?
Your argument assumes an acceleration response the exceeds the worst case latency. If this is not the case, then this argument does not apply.
Not "customary theory," so much as "customary implementation."
Just scale the encoder counts based on actual change in time. Here are some sippets. The code works, but I am ironing out some kinks and last night I smoked the power transistors with a careless test lead.
int ScaleMovement(int ticks, int elapsed) { return (ticks * SCALE_FACTOR)/ elapsed; } int PIDControl::CalcPID(int actual) { int error = m_target - actual; double ecur = error * m_gain_error; double eint = m_error_total * m_gain_int; double edif = (error - m_error_last) * m_gain_dif; m_error_total += error; m_error_last = error; m_pos_last = actual; return (int) round(ecur + eint + edif); }
int encvLeft = enc.GetEncoderValue(LEFT_WHEEL); int encvRight = enc.GetEncoderValue(RIGHT_WHEEL);
int valLeft = ScaleMovement(encvLeft, elapsed); int valRight = ScaleMovement(encvRight, elapsed); int speedLeft = pidLeft.CalcPID(valLeft); int speedRight = pidRight.CalcPID(valRight);
The only difference betwen the above code a classic PID implementation is that elapsed time is used to factor the PID correctly.
Sure you can.
I couldn't point you to a specific book as a lot of the knowledge comes from many sources, some really old and disty motor control books, and old Galil motion controller manual, and lots of hands on experience.
Reply to
mlw
Well, if 50Hz is enough, why do it sometime at 400Hz? In other words: if your loop is stable with a 20ms delay and with whatever filtering you have in place, what 400Hz update rate buys you? But putting that aside for a minute, let's examine your solution:
From your example code below you seem to assume that the rotation speed (input) was constant during the whole time of the unsampled period. You can model it like this: you have your regularly sampled input (let's say at 400Hz and let's call it 'S') and than you randomly replace some input samples with their previous values (sometimes maybe more than one up to 8 so that you can get down to 50Hz). Let's call the modified sample sequence 'W'. Than you run your regular PID loop on the (now periodically sampled) input. This model should give the same set of output than your original code, but now using periodic sampling which can be attacked by traditional methods.
You can further modify this model: instead of replacing some input samples with the previous values, you modify them such that they match the previous value. You can rephrase this even further, saying that your new input (W) is your original input (S) plus another stream of values, where some samples are non-0 - their values are selected such that you get the effect of duplicating some values in the stream. Let's call this new stream of data 'N'.
So, now your modified input (W) is your original input (S) plus this additional signal (N):
W = S+N
If you had a regular 400Hz PID loop, your control signal would be its response to S, wihch is PID(S), but instead you're feeding it with this modified signal (W) so your control signal will be PID(W). Since your PID loop is an otherwise linear system, you can separate its output to individual responses to each input:
PID(W) = PID(S + N) = PID(S) + PID(N)
Here you can see that the control signal that you will be giving your motor will contain the control that you would give it would you sample the original input periodically (PID(S)), plus the PID response to that additional signal (N) that you've introduced by not sampling it periodically (PID(N)). Thus you can look at this second input stream (N) as a disturbance to your original signal (S), also called noise.
If you knew the transfer function of your motor, you would also be able to calculate the noise that you've introduced to the rotation speed of your output shaft like this:
Rotation_noise = Motor(PID(N))
You feed this noise back to the input of your control loop (closing the loop on the noise as well) giving your final noise-floor for your solution on your output shaft:
Total_Rotation_noise = Motor(PID(N)) / (1+Motor(PID(N)))
if we disregard the transfer function of your feedback circuit.
Wether that effect is important in your scenario, you are the only one to judge, but it will degrade your performance to a certain degree.
In other words: your minimum sampling rate is determined by the acceleration response of your system. Which (since it is a mechanical constant) says that there *is* a minimum acceptable sample rate, in other words a *maximum* acceptable response time, which is - by definition - a requirement for a real-time system - to answer your original question in the subject line. And if you can meet the minimum requirements, doing the extra work of evaluating your loop more often occasionaly, wouldn't buy you much.
Well, I guess I have to correct myself here: you can, but you have to tune it for the worst case, in which case, again, doing the extra work wouldn't buy you much.
Regards, Andras Tantos
Reply to
Andras Tantos
Well, the 400hz was a strawman, but there is real need to have a higher rate than the worst case.
If 20ms is my worse case deadline and my OS can typically spaz out for some limited period of time not likely to exceed 15ms. I can't depend on any specific 20ms period. Right? I can, however, depend that the system won't go away for more than 15ms. If I try to sample every 5ms I will never miss my 20ms deadline.
What "unsampled" time? There is the a sime that covers an elapsed time and that is assumed constant, yes. We know this to be false, but give the nature of the gearbox, wheel, and motor, well within error margins.
What? No, I read the encoder values each time. I'm not sure where you think I am reusing encoder reading using privious values.
Which I never do. Where do you think you saw that?
A "real-time" system has one very important quality: A deterministic and predictable response time.
Linux or a BSD does not have this, but they do have a fairly reliable behavior. You can be fairly confident that you will be called, worst case scenario, 50ms, usually much lower.
By coding around the variable response time of the os, you can do it without a real-time system.
Not needing the cost of a micro-controller comes to mind.
Reply to
mlw
Just out of curiosity, does the $3.00 include the D/A converter? Do you have a specific D/A converter that you are thinking of using? If so, which one?
-Wayne
Reply to
Wayne C. Gramlich
You can't assume any such thing. Your process might be swapped out to disk. It could be many hundreds of milliseconds or even seconds before your process gets control. Or ... you reference an unmapped page of virtual memory which causes a page fault or multiples of page faults. There are lots of code paths in non-real-time systems that can result in unpredictable timing.
Just because you ran it for a while and the greatest you saw was 20 ms doesn't mean that is the largest it can be. You aren't seriously calling that a proof, are you? Surely you know better.
I'm taking about your response time being non-deterministic. See above. If you are unable to respond to a bumper switch because your process is not in memory and takes a long time to swap in, you collide with the obstacle while your motors are fully powered, rather than braking. There's a big difference. Just to illustrate what I'm referring to, golfers know this as follow-through on their swing - means the difference of the ball going a 400 yards vs 50 yards. Golf swing: follow-through = good; out of control robots: follow-through = bad.
That's irrelevant.
I never said you were. I was answering your question about why motor control is a real-time process - which you did ask, did you not? You mentioned only one aspect of motor control - the macro level of stopping the base or platform. There's also the actual control aspect of driving the motor.
Yes, I remember.
In case your other method doesn't work out for some reason, you'll need a "Plan B."
Fine.
You are too.
That's not clear at all. See, there you go making assumptions that you are accusing everyone else of making.
Apparently not.
You've only shown that your system is operating reasonably as expected under conditions that you have anticipated. I would certainly expect it to be reasonably well behaved under these conditions. But what about conditions that you haven't anticipated? Do you really think you've exercised even a fraction of the available code paths? Have you really loaded up several memory hungry processes to see what happens when your systems starts swapping? Or what happens if you cause a packet storm - i.e., a flood ping or similar? You did mention your system will be networked. Does your kernel rate limit responses so that it doesn't suffer from DOS? All these things can a do affect your response time. And not just a few milliseconds. We are literally talking seconds in some cases.
-Brian
Reply to
Brian Dean

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