robots did with learning to coordinate legs with primtive reflexes.
I would argue that about all the emergence you should ever expect to see from legs is locomotion. This is very different than the idea that brain directs all this activity. If you are expecting legs to reason that "I think therefore I am!" then you are expecting too much from Brook's demonstration of legs.
If you want to look at more than gates, such as vision, language, and understanding of problem solving, math, physics, engineering and materials science you have to look beyond leg demonstrations to larger scale demonstrations. Those things take more neurons than coodinating a few simple legs.
When I got exposure to follow up work on larger scale demonstrations of Neuronal Group Theory I felt that this was further confirmation of what Brooks had demonstrated with legs. Even wikipedia talks about the various theories that fit into the connectionist camp.
Which means that you have a couple of hundred billion neurons but no single source of control. There is no master processor in the brain controlling a hundred billion slave processors following the goals and directives from the master processor. What one has is an example of sumsumption and not of multitasking of serial processor.
Humans are examples of subsumption if you accept the theory of subsumption. Subsumption is not just a simple multitasking example of driving a primitive leg on a primitive serial microprocessor. The theory has to cover how you think as well as more primitive reflexes.
No, but if you accept subsumption you accept that you are human and that humans provide examples of subsumption unless you erroneously think that subsumption is just multitasking.
"Clear proof" is in your mind. Your mind does not reside in cenral spot. It is distributed as the theory of subsumption dictactes it must. There certainly is clear proof that there is no central control in human brains although you don't have to accept it as clear proof to you.
Surely you are not arguing that there is a single 'master processor' running a control program inside of your head?
It sounds like you are just arguing creationism versus evolution. I don't want to get into that sort of debate with you. It is as simple as that.
If one 'believes' in evoultion one believes that organic compounds and organic life self organized into life as we know it. Some cell specialized as nerve cells developed the properties of neurons. Neurons became specialized and self-organzied in groups and groups into societies.
Classic AI tried to mode a God like consciousness that people had just assumed was what "Intelligence" required. These classical AI types programmed knowledge directly into their machines, akin to God breathing life, and creating his greatest creation Man from nothing.
Connectionists argued that since life evolved and that human consciouness came much later than the chicken or the egg that "intelligence" also had to evolve from simpler organisms to ones with larger brains. And they speculated that their must be a mechism for nerves to learn and organize.
Neuroscience research showed this to be the case and people took Edelman's Nobel Prize winning work in neural organization to build things with much more emergent intelligence than what you get from a handful of neurons and a leg.
And it is generally accepted that connectionists and knowledge encoders don't see the world the same way, but it is generally accepted that subsumption is a theory that fits in with the other connectionist theories. This is true simply because it is abouut no central control.
I think you are just missing the forest because you are focused on the trees. You are looking at the most primitive example, of a leg, and not seeing past it.
There is not much of it to be found it the most primitive demonstrations. But it would be good to not get stuck there.
Even the primary repertiore of the DNA is 'programmed in' by a creator if you consider self-organization and evolution to qualify as a creator.
it seems to be more fundamental than that. I believe in science and evolution, I accept the Nobel Prize winning work about how neurons organize and I have seen very intelligent AI build using theories like NGS and subsumption when I worked for the government.
I believe that what Brooks demonstrated so long ago was that with a little pre-programmed intelligence a very crude robot could learn to move and exhibit similar behaviors to those that had been created by classic centrally controlled goal driven designs.
I think you are just engaging in semantic quibling again about the term 'learning' but you have alluded to Brook's robots 'learing' to coordinate movement of multiple legs.
I think the virtual parallel machines running FSM is both a good way to organize a simple systems using subsumption. It is simple, efficient, structured, and mathematically provable. I expect that that is why some professionals and professors have embraced it. I think it is clever and ahead of its time.
Of course I tend to see it as a bridge to more real parallelism. I like the idea of having a lot of simple processors running simple state machines like simulated neurons rather than simulating many simple virtual processors on a single sequential microcontroller.
Subsumption can be simulated with FSM, and simulated or real parallelism. Subsumption is about parallelism. Multitasking is just a cheap imitation of real parallelism which is why I object so strongly to the idea that subsumption is just multitasking.
If I implement a system with lots of tasks running on lots of processors, and it does just what your FSM on virtual parallel machines do, but truely in parallel with no multitasking at all wouldn't that still be subsumption? Subsumption requires NO multitasking as far as I am concerned. That is just an implemenation technique.
The average hobbiest is indeed not a highly visible researcher.
And you have my sympathy that the average robotics hobbiest seems to have a budget of zero and a lot of unrealistic dreams. I know people who have a lot of diffent hobbies, but this newsgroup is dominated by folks who want a very inexpensive hobby perhaps with no more cost than an internet connection.
it seems we are mostly arguing about definitions of 'intelligence' and 'creator' which clearly isn't going to go anywhere.
My main objection to your comments in this thread is that you said that isn't subsumption just multitasking? I say you can have subsumption without any multitasking, and working on parallel processors I think you should have subsumption without multitasking. But that too is really another subject, but consider say subsumption on SEAforth with real parallelism and without multitasking and then try to convince me that subsumption is just multitasking.
But I think we have gone about as far as we can without us going to comp.robotics.philosphy to argue about whether definitions of intelligence and whether self-organization qualifies as a creator.
So I will just accept that we see things differently.
Best Wishes