We are considering one of the following machines for R&D work cutting
aluminum, steel and hardened steel (Rockwell 54). We need tight
contouring tolerances across a 2-3 inch thick work piece.
The machines are a DMG DMC 835V, a Mazak 510C and one of the new Haas
VF-3's with a premium spindle and a gear box.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated, Bill
ok smart ass milgil,
readers digest version now,
Hurco machine tool ......well ...... ok
Ultamax Control= kickass, none I've seen an easier one to setup,
program at the machine (in the background if necessary with machine
running) with 2D dxf input- point,click - toopath DONE
Yer cutin parts right the fuck now!
for 1sy 2 sies on the fly do it now.
It is the manual machinist's best friend.
Thats , Fanuc, Fadal, Okuma & Howa^2, Haas, Okk, Cincinnati,
Bridgeport, Matsura, Tree, Dynapath, GE, Seimens, Mistsubishi, Mori &
Seiki^2 , LaBlond& Makino^2, Roeders, experience speaking now. (i'm
scaring myself because the bad memories are coming back)<g> especially
the Roeders , what a cluster fuck for such a high precision machine
Damn no DMG or Mazak thou.............. I missed out on those. But I
did know some Mazak guys, & they liked their "mazatrol" software.
All I've done is G-code to'em from masterscam & cimatron- mills that
I know mazaks are strong machine tools. software & controls? hmmm.
Problaby need to have "somescam" software to mak'r run. Unless your a
TI calculator wizz & have memorized trig functions to feed it points
your SOL w/o somscam.
Yup for R&D work Hurco would be my choice , considering that I may be
partial to Hurco because I run a few for a living.
As far as lathe machine tools IMO Mori's take the cake in the
just my 2cents now , worth only a penny - & those are my thoughts.
Thanks for your thoughts. CAM no problem, we are using SolidCAM inside
of SolidWorks and currently running a Haas VF2-SS. It just doesn't
have the torque and rigidity to cut hard steel.
I am looking for a rigid platform and high accuracy.
Ya just cant rip through stock with a light duty type machine just
because some sales looser says you can with his or her's tooling
speeds/feeds & scam program. Here's where skilled machinist techniques
come into play. It takes some trial & error when using linear way-
belt drive spindle machines. Its like apples to oranges comparing to a
box way- gear drive head machine.
sounds like a tooling/process -program problem to me?
less ridgid machine= smaller cuts with $high positive$ tooling.
you did say R&D right?
Unless your cutting +-.0002 all day, most all NEW current CNC's will
give good accuracy.
I would be looking at cost effective & bang for your buck.
Sounds like you have to make prototype parts - nice ones. So it takes
a bit longer machine time. Big deal. 1sy 2sy 3sy parts are big PITA.
The time is saved in Hurco world to get it in the machine & make the
spindle run as fast as possible, in the 2D lathe & 3X mill world that
5X mills - Live tooling mill turn lathes w sub spindles, C & Y axis -
I'd get a new Hurco (cheap) , if it does what you want & the work
pans out to higher volume production - dump the Hurco in a few years &
upgrade. Hell you could buy 2 Hurcos for the cost of a nice tooled
Your only cutting Al & under 55Rc (soft by todays standards) steel.
Don't get carried away with $brick shit house$ machines till high
volume contracts of parts are secured.
Good luck & let us know what you decide on.
Bill, I've got a handful of friends with Mazak 510C machines, and they
all love them. After some haggling, they are barely more expensive
than a similarly equipped Haas VF3SS. If you wait a little bit, any
new machine you buy coming out of Kentucky will have linear roller
guides instead of linear ball bearing guides. The Matrix control
already has just about every option you could ever want, including
20gb of hard drive storage for running huge programs. The only control
option you need is MAZACC3D for fast, accurate 3d motion of fine line
segments. Also, make sure you get a Renishaw tool length setter,
because the standard Mazak plunger is only good for about .0008.
If you really want serious rigidity though, you're not going to be
happy with any C frame machine. You gotta go high dollar with a Mori
NV6000DCG, Makino (like the one Dan posted), Okuma Ace Center, Mazak
FJV, etc. with an enclosed bridge type design.
Thanks for the in depth reply. Actually the Mazak rep was in today and
we were quite astounded with features and frame construction (spread)
compared to our VF-2SS. Pricing is very competitive and as you said
the new machines (430A+) has the linear roller guides too.
At this point I am kinda diggin the Mazak. I am waiting for a DMG
proposal but I already know is quite bit higher in price and I worry
Bill, if you go with the "Smart" series machines, make sure you check
out what they have as far as program storage, high speed machining,
ethernet, etc. I don't have any experience with the Smart control, so
I have no idea how it stacks up against a Nexus machine with the
Matrix control. The Matrix control will make you never want to go
back to anything else, with the 20gb hard drive, plug&play ethernet
transfer, writing probe data to the hard drive, 5 decimal place tool
and work offsets, 5 decimal place programming.
Thanks for everyone's input. We're going Okuma M460-VE -- a beefy high
torque, dual column machine.
We were about the pull the trigger on a Mazak Smart 430A and then it
was sold out from under us and they're only building one a month for
now. We then came close to a Mori Seiki DuraVertical 5100 and the
salesman couldn't nail down a delivery date (first it was 12 weeks,
then 3 weeks (give me a PO to lock in), then 9 weeks (minutes later),
then 3 weeks!!! While all this BS was going on, we called Okuma and
they offered us a new M460-VE dual column machine for a small
reasonable premium over the other guy's C-frames.
Unlike the other sales guys, the Okuma folks (Morris) actually took
time to really understand our requirements and gave us references to
customers with similar challenges. After we spoke to two of these
shops (one who has 45 machines), it was all over. PO went in
Cool, you cant go wrong with Okuma or Mori's. They are the "brick shit
houses" of machine tools if money is not an issue.
So what about options? C axis rotary table, CTS , tooling? Thats
were they "getya"<g>
Bought the Renishaw probe set -- other features we need are standard.
Total price came in at less than a 17% premium over the entry model
Mori DuraVertical -- not bad for double column bridge machine! Comes
with the Big-Plus spindle so we're going to try our some heat shrink
Big-Plus holders too.
The DMG sure looks nice & they do have a decent reputation...tho they
do not have much of a presence in North America. I am a fan of the
siemens control they offer.. The Mazak would be my vote....good
reputation and good service. I am amazed that Haas offers a "premium
spindle"....I would think that should be standard. No matter what
route you go...make sure you get the look ahead function (high speed
Steer very clear of DMG.......Unless you can stand for your machine to be
down for long stretches of time (i.e. up to 19 weeks).
Had an incident just a couple months ago, machine went down, electrical
problem. Was 3 weeks before a tech even showed up (And we are a global
Tier 1 supplier.) Spends 2 days and says we need "this" part, and he'll
order it and it will be in in 2 weeks. 2 weeks passes....no part...
We call....and inquire..
Reply: "Oh, they don't make that part anymore, sorry." <click>
No help, no suggestions, just "we don't make it anymore" your tough luck.
The machine is a 2003 or 2004 model year 5 axis.
It's actually taken us as long as 19 weeks to get a machine fixed.
We'll never buy another one, period.
Mazak still fully supports the 1991 model AJV's we have (as well as all
the other mazak equipment we have - 200+) and we can usually have parts
in 4-6 hours if we door to door it.
You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
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