Tool Holders

I am currently researching which tools holders would best suit my needs. The majority of what I machine is either aluminum or plastic.
Typical part size would fit in your hand, although I imagine I'll be forging into slightly larger parts once the vmc gets here.
At the moment the range of tooling I use is .5 DIA and under, with .032 up to .250 more like the norm. Much of it is relieved diameter tooling for that wonderdul 6+loc:1dia necessity.
I've decided to go after er11 collet chucks. I've looked at Kennametal (I forgot who makes those) and Parlec in the J&L catalogue and it's a no go for this size. Lyndex and Command both make an er11 chuck that looks as if it would fit the requirements. Chances are I will probably also pick up some er16 or er20 collet chucks, as well.
I'd also be interested in anyone's experience with the slightly extended variety of tool holders offered by most companies. I am talking about a 4.5 inch vs. 2.5 inch length or similar. Is there an exponential rise in chatter? Do cutters snap off more due to flex? Anything along those lines of experiences will do. My biggest reason for considering these is more for giving me a clearer line of sight for some stuff.
That's it for starters, except for some specs on the machine. It's a Fadal 3016 104D linear ball way w/cat40/10k spindle. I know the spindle won't be nearly enough for some of my work, but it was this or nothing. Speaking of spindles, does anyone also have some experience, good or bad, with speeder heads?
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With smaller dia tools like that it aint gonna make a noticable difference in rigidity if the toolholder is sticking out at 4-1/2 inches as opposed to 2-1/2 when cutting soft materials...
For small tools like 3/8 dia shank and under when I use collet chucks, I usually tend to use the next bigger size chuck....IOW a 3/8 shank tool goes into a collet chuck that has a range up to 1/2in...and NOT into a chuck that can only hold a max of 3/8 dia shank.
Anything 1/2in diameter and above goes into an endmill holder........
5/8 is where you need to start looking at shorter holders and with 3/4 and up you really ought to use stubby holders if doing any serious metal removal volumes, esp. if you are cutting steels or anything harder than aluminum...
Your mileage may vary....
--

SVL











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PrecisionMachinisT wrote:
<snipped>

Yep, I was thinking that after I wrote it but what the hey? I spent all that time writing it out, I figured I may as well post it. :-)

I can agree with not taking a size to its limits, even in aluminum.

Sure, I can see that.

I may have some larger part sizes coming up in the near future and I was also considering some ball end mill insert tooling for finish work. Do you have any experience with these, one brand/insert geometry over another?
Thanks for the input, Steve.
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What SVL said.
There was a thread some time on collets, er vs. double angle, I think.
I have a pretty complete set of sandvik er 35's, from about 1 mm up to about 5/8, which are pretty expensive--$35 ea. And sort of hard to find. Chuck is nice, tho, in that it is not too bulky.
I needed more tool holders, 'n' I figgered the most versatile/cheap way to accomplish this was w/ another collet chuck and a few collets. But this time I went for one thing, and one thing only: fukn PRICE! $12/ea from my local supplier. Bigger than the er35s, much bulkier chuck, but which is OK for now. Which is sort contrary to SVL's good advice, but most of my stuff is impatient prototyping, where I don't really care how the tool is held, as long as it cuts. For production I would indeed follow his guidelines. ---------------------------- Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll
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Proctologically Violated©® wrote:

Yes, I remember that one. I'm not looking at DAs.

Bulk is one of my concerns. This Fadal ain't no Okuma. I don't need bulk for the majority of my work.

Good advice will get your checkbook into trouble all the time. I got a shocker the other day. I still haven't received the literature, but over the phone the Command rep. said something like $190 retail for the ER11 chuck he was pushing. Ouch! Whoever sells me on whatever I buy had better get ready to sharpen his pencil or I'll ... I'll ... I don't know yet. I'll figure it out.

So is mine, but it looks like the numbers will grow with this machine. It's also good not to get a lot of run out on .047 end mills, especially when you get the occasional hardened part to rework. It's only one of these, G. Please. I swear it's the only one. One hour later, here come 6 more. You did such a nice job on that ONE. See what you can do with these. They are the only things keeping us from sending out sales samples to KEY customers. Don't worry about the cutters. How much can one dozen little cutters cost, anyway? Darn part's no bigger than a quarter and it has two radii that need changing and .047 is what fits and they need it now and, and ...
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Hi Garibaldi,
I was surprised (pleasantly, not UNpleasantly....) recently to get very competitive pricing on some Rego Fix CAT40 ER16 collet chucks...think they came in around $145/ea. @ 10 qty...cheaper than I've ever gotten the Command ER16's. Not to mention that the Commands look like junk next to the Rego Fix stuff...and the Command nuts with that silly little snap ring that lasts all of about oh...not nearly long enough. I was kinda expecting the full-bore-ream job for the $wiss stuff, but it was reasonable....I don't even bother with anybody else's ER16 collets, either.
I can't figure it out...everybody obsesses over precision this and precision that, and then they cheap it out when it comes to collets and holders. YMMV, as they say, but this stuff was definitely worth it, in my book.
Cheers...........Brian
Proctologically Violated©® wrote:

Yes, I remember that one. I'm not looking at DAs.

about

is

Bulk is one of my concerns. This Fadal ain't no Okuma. I don't need bulk for the majority of my work.

Good advice will get your checkbook into trouble all the time. I got a shocker the other day. I still haven't received the literature, but over the phone the Command rep. said something like $190 retail for the ER11 chuck he was pushing. Ouch! Whoever sells me on whatever I buy had better get ready to sharpen his pencil or I'll ... I'll ... I don't know yet. I'll figure it out.

So is mine, but it looks like the numbers will grow with this machine. It's also good not to get a lot of run out on .047 end mills, especially when you get the occasional hardened part to rework. It's only one of these, G. Please. I swear it's the only one. One hour later, here come 6 more. You did such a nice job on that ONE. See what you can do with these. They are the only things keeping us from sending out sales samples to KEY customers. Don't worry about the cutters. How much can one dozen little cutters cost, anyway? Darn part's no bigger than a quarter and it has two radii that need changing and .047 is what fits and they need it now and, and ...
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Nom de Plume wrote:

Brian,
I never look for cheap but, the initial $190/chuck price I was given over the phone was a bit of a shock. I can't say for certain I wasn't being given a suggested retail price. In their defense, I can say I know of a shop that is still using Command tooling that dates back to the mid eighties and it has held up well for them.
I'll have to look into the Rego Fix line.
Thanks for the lead.
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they
Command

Fix

all

precision

YMMV,

Maybe look into Richmill and Carbaloy........
But be real careful with Lyndex 180da, those will crack at the taper inna heartbeat if they ever get overtightened or receive some kinda shock...
Thin walled shit never works out, but this is something your not probly not goina see or notice until after youve bought one or some.
--

SVL

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PrecisionMachinisT wrote:

I'll add these to the list.

I don't want da's.

That "is" a concern with the ER11 holders. I guess I'll finger it out after I do some comparisons. Thanks for the heads up.
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inna

Da's or Tg's are still a good thing, what you wanna do is buy a bunch of the big ones in bulk, at auction perhaps.....
But then only buy collets for those in say....1/2, 3/4, and 1.00.........and you use them to hold the straight shank extensions in whatever to get to your finer sizes...you can whack a tg100 chuck that has a er 11 ss extention in it prety darned hard and still your only out the er11...
--

SVL




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shock...

the

I probly wasnt clear enough on this, so I will add these are with the 40 taper shank--in this case Im talking da180 and tg100........these work fine as your master chucks.....as would be ER 32 or 40 or some Balas stuff if they happen to became available first at a comparable price...

1.00.........and

extention

Again, then you buy your straight shank chucks to fit these....in whatever series it is that gets you your jollies........
--

SVL



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PrecisionMachinisT wrote:

Extra connections are something I would like to avoid, though I have considered this as a possibility. It also becomes more expensive to put together something that has a higher tendencey to run out.
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fine

whatever

Well then, I guess your on your own......
I just been trying to tell you how I put my first tool kit together, and the mistakes I had made along the way....might be worthy of a review of the whole thread, but I aint up to pricing it all out for you as your work package aint been described except but vaguely........ours is mostly production, but one off aint any problem at all what with what I've assembled from the get-go.....
You seem to have developed some sort of an aversion to anything but the ER series, but it could give a flying _rat-fuck_ as to why, or as to whether it's even justified in some cases.....its not *MY* money, after all.....
Now a days, I have some 140 or so 40 taper chucks to spread across 3 machines, and so anymore it really dont seem much an issue where it all goes from here--most of it is DA and there's a handful of TG--I got pretty much all the possible combinations covered these days, I bet theres over 500 collets in inventory...
And frankly, buying more spindle tooling simply isnt something that's very high on my list anymore......IOW...if its cheap and it adds flexibility, then maybe...........
Seeya........
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--

SVL




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Damn it! I pushed the wrong button. That'll teach me to do this before having coffee.
PrecisionMachinisT wrote:

I wouldn't expect you to price it out for me. The suggestions you've made are all good.

Awww, don't take it so personally Steve. I do appreciate yer input. That's why I've replied to your posts. I was fishing to see if there is something I've missed. Most of it seems to be in the area of small tooling, which is where the majority of my work is stuck these days. I'm willing to bet that as soon as this vmc hits the floor, the first job I'll get will be parts as big as my arm instead of the size of a quarter and I'll be buying more tooling. :-)

That is easy to do with three machines. I've also looked at the TG's. I'm still not sure about the benefit of those over the ER's. The specs seem close.

Again, that's a sign you've got a lot of different possibilities covered. That's enviable.
Thanks for all your input.
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garibaldi wrote:

baldi, I use both ER-16 and TG 750 holders. I like the TGs for the larger endmills because in my opinion they grip tighter due to the shallow taper angle. I haven't had a problem with them sucking out, but I'm probably not pushing them as hard as some do.
I used to use the TGs for the smaller sizes, but when I was tooling up a new VMC a salesman said that the ER is a better collet for the smaller shank tools because of the steeper angle and that more of the shank is in collet. This seems true to me since when I used to run 1/8 shank endmills in the TG collets I could experience runout, and a "squishey feeling when tightening them, especially if the endmill was double ended.
I also buy my ER collets in true inch size so that I get full contact with the shank. I wonder if this is why some people experience with the endmills sucking out?
I like the DA series for drills better than either ER or TG, just a personal preference.
--
Regards,
Steve Saling
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Garlicdude wrote:

Don't tell Anthony or Steve. :-)

I've been told the opposite by a tooling technical rep. His advice was that if the tool shank is in far enough, the TG's are more accurate and the ER's follow closely behind.

One interesting characteristic I have found is that ER collets come in several "compression" flavors. One manufacturer's inch ER's compress a whopping .040" while their metric ER's compress only .020". When I first saw this I decided I'd get metric collets. A couple of days later I noticed another manufacturer's inch ER collets only compressed .020". Looking at some TG collets I notice they compress only .015". Decisions, decisions!
The same tech told me DA collets pinch more than they collapse.
I guess it's all about trying to be as much of an educated consumer as possible, even though it isn't my money.

I've used DA collets for small end mills in the past but I probably will not for the vmc, since I see I can get small nose profile ER11 holders.
Thanks for your contribution.
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For small and miniature endmills you would have no end to problems with DA collets.
--

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PrecisionMachinisT wrote:

Other than runout, what else have you found problematic, assuming you are using collet diameters that match the shank?
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garibaldi wrote:

Garibaldi:
    In the DA holders we have the top of the collets themselves are recessed below the collet nut some 1/8 - 3/16 depending on brand, whereas the ER collets are flush mounted with the nut, and that extra support can be very important when using miniature end mills. Also the DA collets/holders only contact on a very small area of the collet/holder, where the ER collets/holders contact on the full length of the collet.     Our DA collets/holders now are used primarily for holding drills and reamers when we occasionally run out of DA collets, where any possible runout or extra length in the collet nut is not so crucial.     Probably the best tool holder method as regards runout and holding ability would be to use shrik-fit tool holders.
--
BottleBob
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BottleBob wrote:

... and yet another good reason not to use those for small dia. end mills.

Huh? I think you mean, "run out of ER collets".

We have no need to go there.
Thanks Bob.
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