Hello all, Have just got a 2nd hand Warco BH600, gap bed and wonder what tool size to use in conjunction with T1 QC tool holders. HSS or tipped? Have only used HSS and brazed carbide tipped in the past, but that was
20+ years ago, so no doubt things have moved on since then. I will, however, be buying one of the Greenwood parting tools. From what I've read, this, and equivalent, is/are the Holy Grail for parting off. As the replaceable tipped tools are not cheap, I will need to be sure of the size before stumping up the cash. Workshop still not finished, but oh so nearly done. Why oh why do things take 4 times longer than you estimate? Old age or what? Regards GeoffH (The Pirate) Norfolk - UK not VA
Hi, glad to see that you have got back into the fold. I'm not sure of the specification of the T1 range of tool holders but with the standard BH600 tool holder or my Chinese 200 series 1/2" or 12 mm is the largest you can use and get on centre height. For a comparison with your T1 the sizes of the 200 series are here
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Basically the bottom of the tool slot to the bottom of the tool holder on mine is 1/2" so if yours is thinner then you might get a slightly bigger tool in. A friend who has a BH600 had to remove 4mm off the bottom of his 16mm tools to allow him to get them on centre height so
12mm seems to be it. Annoying for me as I have a lot of older =BD" HSS tools that curve up to the cutting edge and I can't use them unless I use a Myford type clamp directly on the top of the topslide, still didn't pay much [Bg] for them. I use 3/8" and =BD" HSS regularly and prefer it for a good finish and where I need a particular shape.
I have found myself more and more using replaceable tipped tools. I have a variety of types ranging from the cheap to the b****y expensive and have learnt that price does not always equate to performance. I have 12mm sets from Glanze which are fine and another unmarked cheap set which is awful and was consigned to the bottom drawer very quickly. I have a couple of Greenwood left/right hand tools and again they are fine but expensive. I also have some 12mm Tizit maxilocks and they are excellent. I don't use brazed carbide tools at all these days, although I know some people are successful with them they have never worked for me.
To be honest my current favourite RH tools that live in the toolposts of my lathes are 12mm tools bought from Mary Poppinsbag (John Stevenson's Gert) and they are superb. They have reasonably priced tips, a proper sized screw to hold them in place and work extremely well. Superb value for money as well.
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When it comes to the parting tool I bought mine from Jenny at JB Cutting Tools and it is superb. Same concept as the Greenwood Q-cut (which is also superb) but the insert is held in a separate blade which can be moved in the holder to give a little more range. Very similar to the one Mark shows here
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There are a few tip types I tend to use the type with a centre groove which curls the swarf to stop it jamming in the slot.
Hope you enjoy your BH600, mine certainly works well for me.
Get some 3/16 and 1/4 inch size HSS tools. Dead easy to resharpen and grind to meet your needs, and incredibly forgiving for a guy learning to run a lathe. You can stack up a couple bits or use spacers to bring them up to fill the space in the tool holders. Leave the brazed insert tooling at the store, they are mostly s**te anyway, easy to chip and a PITA to sharpen properly.
Insert tooling, you mostly get what you pay for. stick to name brand toolholders and standard rather than proprietary shapes of tips. A look through the catalog of a decent tool supplier will show that there are a pile of different shapes and materials for inserts. For general turning, I really like useing a 80 deg diamond shaped tip of about 3/8 (10mm) I.C. size, or a triangular tip of similar size.
With a bit of care you can make your own tool holders that are quite better than the cheap variety sold for hobby use.
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The above link is one of many out there.
The metalwebnews site has much good stuff, too.:-)
I don't have a BH600, but I like the Sandvik Coromant DCMT inserts (55 deg diamond shape) , they work very well on my speed-limited ML7 and give a nice finish as well as decent metal removal.
The grade I use are DCMT 070202 MF 1025, which have a 0.2mm nose radius and are supposedly just for finishing cuts in stainless, but seem to work very well in all materials. The holders are just a cheap
10mm Warco boxed set that the wife bought me last year.
Must be something to do with great minds Peter, although my bigger lathes are equipped as mentioned above my S7 lives with 10mm tools from warco in the small Dixon. I really can't fault their 7 piece set particularly as it is only =A345. While I like the DCMT as you mention particularly for access, I do a lot of turning with the CCMT Coromat and it works very well. I find it slightly more durable than the DCMT. I also like the uncoated Widia Valenite CCMT 060204 which cuts well. These produce a poor finish when new but improve when the insert has done a bit of work. They do seem slightly more prone to chipping than the Coromat though. I also use one of the Glanze SCBCR tools which lets me use the otherwise unused 75% edges, I find these good for heavy work and even intermitant cuts, not very versatile though.
I can't claim any great knowledge of inserts and I have to give Jenny at JB Cutting Tools credit for getting me this far. Every time I've asked for advice she has come up trumps with an excellent insert. No connection, just a happy customer.
While I have too many inserts in stock at the moment to change, I have to say that "our Gerts" TPUN tools also work very well on the Myford although not in the Dixon as they are too big. I will have to think hard when it comes time to buy another supply of inserts though.
I've had some success with CCMW060202 inserts. These are like the CCMT, but with no chip breaker. I have used the for cast iron. in boring bars and on the shaper. They are a little bit less fragile than the CCMTs.
When I get the surface grinder commissioned, one of my first projects is going to be to turn a lump of square HSS into CCMx inserts. Then I'll really be cooking with charcoal :-)
On or around Sat, 28 Oct 2006 18:14:08 GMT, Trevor Jones enlightened us thusly:
sounds quite like the one I have. CCMT09, I think it is, on a 12mm square shank holder. Mind, on the Student, it has to sit on almost 12mm of spacers to get it the right height.
I've got a boring bar with a brazed-on tip, so far I've managed to avoid chipping it. I've also got a green-grit wheel on the grinder.
Oh Mark don't you think the world has enough of those already? I always think the economy should revolve round Mars Bars and Beer tokens.......... What else could a man want!!
Thanks for all the replies. Will let you know what I decide to use. Don't hold you breath though, as finishing workshop is still a couple of months away. But . . the lathe is now on its stand! Progress. Cheers
Been reading this thread with interest but I still don't have the fina answer for myself. I bought a BH600 recently as well from Warco and ordered their 12mm 9 piece turning set with it. (This one although no exactly the same as in the photo:
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Not having lots of experience I am having trouble with these. I'm no sure they are the best design (angles seem to me to be the opposite o what the text book lathe tool angle info would tell you). I'm also no really sure, (because of the angles etc) about which one is used fo which purpose.
Also I'm not convinced about the method these tools use for holding th inserts on - a screw from the back of the insert with a cam which lock the insert onto the holder. The method of a countersunk screw seem more secure to me?? (As an aside - if I do decide to persevere with these does anyone knw if other inserts will fit them or do the inserts have to be bought for Warco only)
So I guess my big question is - if i was to start again and buy a se of 12mm insert tooling for this lathe - what set would peopl recommend? I'd also appreciate where (on-line preferably) I could buy these.
Looks like an interesting set. Should be at the price. Still not as expensive as some sets I've seen advertised.
I've never used this type of tool either, but from what I have deduced , the correct angles are molded into the tip itself viz the groove along the cutting edge provides the correct angle. Don't think you can compare with hss tool grinding angles shown in most ME books.
Can't comment about the method of securing, but it will be interesting to hear from other members of the group.
I would also be interested to hear comments about these last two points. The lathe in as last mounted on its stand, and the whole lot on a 4" high base giving me the perfect working height. I can now start the final organization of the workshop i.e. shelving and electrics. Got may local DIY store to match some Warco green so that I can give may other machines a new coat of paint. It's only standard oil based paint, so let's hope it stands up the cutting fluid. Another post about to be done asking advise on cutting fluid. Regards
Hi, gn3dr, that is certainly an unusual set and not one I have any practical experience of as I chose to stick with the more common insert design. They are not unique to Warco though as Chronos do a very similar set. The problem I thought about when looking at them was that the design of the chip breaker grooves mean that the angle each tool can be presented to the work is fairly specific and the edge of the tip is vulnerable to damage. I think that the more common insert types that are used on our smaller machines (including the BH600) are more flexible and will be more robust and result in less tool changes. The type of tips I'm thinking of would be CCMT, DCMT, TCMT and TPUN, although there are more tip types than you can shake a stick at. I wouldn't worry too much about having a bit of trouble with them to start with most people find that they need to experiment a bit to find what type of tools suit them best. Look in most workshops and you will find a variety of tools that have been tried and then consigned to the drawer with most work being done with a few favourite tools. A lot of people have trouble initially with tipped tooling because they don't realise how delicate the tips actually are and try to use tips with chipped edges. They also tend to run them too slowly and with too fine a cut. These tips work properly if they are worked hard.
There is nothing wrong with the clamp type holder although it tends to be a bit more bulky and the insert pockets need to be accurately machined. In fact, they used to be common as they allowed the insert to be formed without a hole which were claimed to be stronger and cheaper particularly for intermitant cuts. Modern insert manufacture has moved on though and I note that the inserts shown on your picture all have holes anyway?? The biggest problem with the countersunk screw design is that in our smaller tools they rely on good quality screws, something many of the cheapest sets do not have. In poor quality tooling where the pocket is not accurately machined the screw can allow the tip to rotate.
Chronos also sell these tips at =A312ish for the seven tips, that is very cheap really as the tips I've mentioned above will typically be about =A320 or so for 10 or =A33 each if you buy smaller quantities. For better advice re the tips available I would give Jenny a ring at JB Cutting Tools, if you tell her the set you have she will be able to advise (and supply) on what tips are available:
J=2EB. Cutting Tools The Cottages Hundall Sheffield S18 4BP
My experience is that buying sets is not necessarily the best way to go, I've bought several and to be honest many of the tools now reside in the box they came in. I have tended to buy individual tools from the recognised suppliers as I have progressed and identified a need for them. The most used tools that I have are the SCLCR (right hand turning and facing) type which live in the toolposts most of the time. I have these with CCMT, DCMT and TPUN tips that I use for various applications. I have the left hand version for CCMT and DCMT. I also have the SCBCR type (because I'm a cheapskate) which allows me to use the otherwise unused corners of the insert, not very flexible but good for heavy metal removal. Just by changing the angle of the toolpost slightly when using the SCLCR/SCLCL tools you can cover turning, facing, chamfering etc and you will find that you don't need a lot of specialised tools to do 75% of the tasks.
In looking at what you already have, I see no problem with the inside and outside thread cutting tools other than the inside one may be a bit bulky so why would you want to replicate those. The corner chamfering tool also looks OK for the few times you will probably use it. I personally wouldn't use the parting off tools included in any of the sets I know of, that doesn't mean they won't work just that I have had a lot of success with the Q-cut type tool.
You have obviously found Warco but there are plenty of suppliers on line that will sell you inserts and holders, have a look at:
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They are not in any order except how they are located in my favourites, I have bought from them all at times and the service has been fine.
I'm not sure if this is any use as it only reflects my own personal experience and that is limited, it might however ruffle a few feathers and stimulate a bit more discussion for you.
Thanks Keith -very comprehensive reply as usual. The SCLCR/L holder
with the CCMT inserts definitely look a bit more what I think in m mind is a better design.
I have bought from RDG before and find them very good. Chronos haven't used and they seem OK too. Nice stuff on the Greenwood and J sites but the prices are really out there compared to RDG & Chronos!
I think I will copy you and try a SCLCR holder with CCMT tips. The RD ones look OK? The SCBCR for using the unused corners is also a goo idea which I might shamelessly copy too.
Ger I agree, come on guys give the guy the benefit of your experience some of you must do things differently.
Ger, no diatribe this time just a couple of small points. As I said I have lots of these including an RDG one and it works fine. I forgot to mention that you need to take care with the small screws on these CCMT holders. I try to buy a spare or two with the holder. They fill up with swarf and if you try removing them without cleaning them out it's easy to round the socket off, don't ask how I know. I now keep a needle handy to clean out the socket before I remove them and make sure I have a good fitting key.
I do also use a fair amount of 3/8" mainly HSS which is only a couple of pounds a length (ArcEuroTrade, RDG etc), I grind these with a cheap bench grinder and when I find a shape that I use a lot I look for it in the insert range and add to my collection.
You will find the RH tool you use all the time, the LH only when you have to "backface" etc and the SCBCR I use when I'm reducing the diameter a lot and want to save wear on my other tips. I told you I was a cheapskate.
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