Atlas shaper advice needed

I am now the proud owner of an Atlas 7B shaper.
for details see
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Some specific question for the group:
#1 -- Is there any place still selling replacement parts?
#2 -- I need tool holders. The American style lathe tool holders
will fit, but is the carbide style with 0 degree built in back
rake or the regular w/ 15 degree (?) better for shaper use? No
HD production shaping projected, just hobby/home use.
#3 -- How [well] does a lathe cut-off [parting off] tool holder
work for a slotter? Enco has these on sale
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?PMPAGE=157&PMITEM=RW250-1774that looks like they should work.
Any one tried this?
Also the "correct" size holder [3/8 wide] takes a 3/32X5/8 blade,
which are available, but for lathe work I have had better result
with the parallel T shaped blades. The problem is that these
don't seem to be available in the 3/32X5/8 size to fit the
holder. Anyone used the H style blades in a shaper and if so is
there enough difference in performance to bother with? Again
production speed is not important, but ease of set up and use is.
The old shaper books show the use of "goose neck" tools.
Armstrong still makes a "goo sneck" cut-off tool holder [83-213 @
165$US, wrench and one blade included] that will fit, but the
price makes my socks roll up and down.
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tried one of these, and if so is there any difference for
home/hobby use? Any alternative suppliers or used?
I am also looking for both belts guards [left and right side],
the left side "door," the 3/8 square drive "crank" for table
setting, stroke adjustment, etc., the elusive Armstrong #39 multi
position tool holder [or equivalent] and a small swivel shaper
vise.
If anyone has and uses the multi position tool holder, is it
worth the effort/cost to locate, or will a left/right lathe tool
holder work just about as well?
FWIW - I got the shaper from Ron Moore of Oklahoma City. If you
are looking for an older machine, parts for an older machine, or
tooling for an older machine, drop him an email. Nice person to
do business with. snipped-for-privacy@mlogical.com FWIW -- he may be able to
give Gunner a run for the money about who has the most "stuff."
Thanks for any leads, information or advise.
Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
Reply to
F. George McDuffee
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I've got a shaper, but not an Atlas. I do know that Clausing can still supply some parts for the Atlas lathes and mills, don't know about the shapers. There was a guy selling reproduction cast belt guards and some other parts on eBay. The Atlas newsgroup should be a help.
I rarely use toolholders in the shaper. You don't have to worry about tool height, so holding a large tool bit in the toolpost works fine. If you want to use a toolholder, either of the styles are fine - just grind the bit to get the rake angle you want.
The toolholders that are handy are the one that allows you to set the tool bit at different angles and the one that takes a boring bar for use in cutting internal keyways or splines. The former is handy for cutting T slots, dovetails and such. You can get a more rigid setup than the "boring bar holder" by making a toolpost-type holder that will hold the bar directly. Both of these toolholders are, as you feared, pricey. Like shapers themselves - the big ones can go dirt cheap, but the small ones often sell very high.
The right and left hand toolholders will do almost anything you need, except maybe get under a T slot. If you need it, you can make one of the adjustable holders.
Carbide bits are not recommended. They'll chip, as you're always taking an interrupted cut with a shaper.
I've used a cutoff tool only a couple of times in the shaper. Wasn't crazy about it. It has to re-enter the slot with every stroke, and can bang on the edges when it does.
Shapers are a great lot of fun. Just don't get lulled into carelessness by their slow speed - they are one of the most dangerous machines in the shop. You'll want to clean off the chips or check the nice surface with your finger between strokes. Your finger won't even slow it down. Oh, and those chips are hot.
Welcome to the club. We'll teach you the secret handshake after one year, as long as you still have most of your fingers.
John Martin
Reply to
John Martin
Try Joe at Plaza tools. Try Clausing.
The zero rake tool holders are better, but for light use, the HSS rake tools will do. If you are nervous about them digging in, run the tool holder backwards, and grind the tool to suit.
I use some larger HSS bits, held directly in the tool clamp.
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that looks like they should work.
Grind a HSS bit as required. Cheaper ! If you really feel th need to have one, use the shaper to cut the dovetail, and make one.
See above!
Again with the cut-off tool. Save the money for stuff you need. The goose neck tools were used to prevent dig-in on the cut stroke. A heavy load on the tool would caue the tool to flex away from the work. For the most part, you won't load the machine that much, for the times that you do, a straight tool holder will work just fine. If you want a goose neck tool, make one.
Plaza Tools or perhaps the Sobels, for the belt guards. And Ebay. Learn to recognize the parts you need. An awful pile of good stuff still goes up there, that the seller has no clue of the identity of. Scan through the "Vice" and Vise" listings every so often, and you will likely see the correct one go by at some point. Then all you have to do is pay more than anyone else is willing to!
The multi position tool holder is worth watching for, but not worth paying all your toy money for, if you know what I mean. I paid $25 for one, and figured I got a good deal. Lathe tool holders are fine, too.
Novel thought. Make one.
Cheers Trevor Jones
Reply to
Trevor Jones
One of those was on CL in Tyler TX this week. Nice one, running, complete. Asking $500, sold for $450.
"Lathe":
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F. George McDuffee wrote:
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that looks like they should work.
Reply to
Rex
thats all I use 99% of the time
Gunner, Logan shaper
Btw...there is an Atlas shaper group on Yahoo Groups. Appears pretty active
Reply to
Gunner
George, there are a number of shaper books available on the NEMES web site..
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No Atlas specific books but a lot of excellent shaper information.
Errol Groff
Reply to
Errol Groff
Just confirming what the others have said, really.
Carbide, whether insert or brazed has a very short life on a shaper. It isn't just the interrupted cut, dragging the tool backwards after knocking it on the front face of the work chips the end off the tool in very short order.
Parting tools can be used for cutting slots. But don't bother with blade type tools in holders. they _will_ snap. A parting tool ground with plenty of side relief from a lump of HSS will cut very tidy slots.
In general, tools work best in shapers when they are as stiff as you can make them. I get reasonable results from 1/2" square HSS blanks and for gear cutting, excellent results from 3/8" square blanks Loctite 603'd into 3/4"x5/8"x4" slotted steel holders on my 10" Royal shaper. Basically, aim at a tool size that will fill the toolpost if you are intending heavy work or much overhang of the tool bit.
Having got you paranoid, left and right handed HSS lathe tools give perfectly adequate results for most work. for the finest finishing work there are two specific tool forms, one for brittle material like cast iron and the other for ductile material like steel.
Moltrecht Vol 2 has examples in the very first chapter or this link has slightly less good examples:-
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There are better references, but I can't find them right now.
Have fun :-) Mark Rand RTFM
Reply to
Mark Rand
Congratulations!
You could try:
"Clausing Service Center".
1 (574) 533-0371 as of July 2005.
they are part of what is left of Atlas, and may have parts for the machine. You can check, at least. And be prepared with the model number and serial number -- they can probably give you the date of manufacture of your machine.
The normal holders for the shaper hold the tools parallel to the shank, so you would have to grind a negative rake onto the tools for the 15 degree holders.
My machine is a Rockwell/Delta -- they bought the 7" machine line from AMMCO.
What I normally use are two things:
1) One of the special shaper holders which has a castelation to allow the tool to be set at 45 degree increments to the shank, giving seven usable positions (since having the point over the shank is obviously not much use.
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that looks like they should work.
Not I -- so I don't know how it would work.
Since I have not used parting tools on the shaper, I have also not used the T-profile blades.
That would be fun to see. :-)
The purpose of the gooseneck is to have the tool tilt away from the workpiece when it digs in -- also used for aggressive parting. Given the forces involved in the larger shapers, they are pretty much mandatory for those, but you can probably get around the need for our size of machines.
I would like to have one for parting -- if I did not use Aloris style tool post holders.
It gives a lot more flexibility in setup, for example when trying to undercut something. Your standard lathe holders only have a limited left or right as well as straight ahead (and a separate holder for each), while the multi-position has eight positions, of which seven are useful.
I got mine from an eBay auction -- after a few years of watching.
Useful information. Thanks.
Enjoy, DoN.
Reply to
DoN. Nichols
========= Thanks for the URL --- excellent source and the price is right.
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
Reply to
F. George McDuffee
Thanks -- you just saved me some money/aggrivation here. Has anyone used the P type cutoff blades. I am thinking of two long pieces of 3/8 key stock [as large/wide as will fit in the Atlas tool post], with grooves cut [on the shaper naturally] to fit the top and bottom of the blades as a P5S [3/16 wide] Anyone tried this? I have several projects in mind that need slots.
Limited to 3/8 width X about 1-1/8 depth on the Atlas 7B tool post.
Lindsay. Some of the other Lindsay reprints such as the Complete Practical Machinist by Rose [1901 edition] also have some shaper hints. Rose shows on page 63 a planer tool holder that should adapt to the shaper. I have a piece of CRS reserved.
The older books also show very large tool holders (or possibly forged tools) bolted directly to the clapper block w/o the use of a tool post. Some seem to have bolts through the tool shank and others are retained with straps bolted to the clapper block. Has anyone drilled and tapped their clapper block to allow this? If so what was the result? I could use up to 1 inch square holders with this mod, but would be limited to (4) 5/16 cap screws, which would seem to be adequate.
========= Thanks for the feedback and info.
Has anyone machined "elling" or other form tools from A2? Enco has a sale on A2 drill rod this month.
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so what heat treat did you use and what did you draw to? Or would I be better off grinding from a hard 1/4 X 1/2 or 5/8 tool bit? I don't have a surface grinder, but I do have a baldor style carbide grinder [with white rocks], a disk/belt sander [with blue belts] and a Drimel tool.
FWIW -- I think I have located what looks like an exact replacement S7-100 crank from Carr-Lane their sku CL-0-H @10.25$US list, and the local mill supply is a Carr Lane dealer.
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Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
Reply to
F. George McDuffee
=========== If I had a suitable piece of metal "in stock" I more than likely would. Unfortunately, if you have to [cough -- cough] buy a suitable piece of metal, it frequently costs as much for just the material as it does for a complete "part" from Asia.
From comments in this thread and emails, and further reading of the old texts, it appears that much of the fancy tooling of that era, such as goose necks, either to allow spring or place the cutting edge on the clapper box pin center line, were either "voodoo," a work around for inconsistent material with hard and soft spots, or production "improvers" to allow deeper cuts, faster speeds, bigger feed rates, etc. In the home/hobby shop slower speeds, lighter feeds and shallower depths of cuts are always an option, with less wear and tear on the tooling and equipment.
That said, I more than likely will butcher yet another innocent piece of CDS.
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
Reply to
F. George McDuffee
What's the diameter of the toolpost? The pictures in the Atlas manual seem to indicate a rather narrow slot in a reasonably sized post. For comparison, mine's got a 5/8 slot in a 1 1/8 post. That's verging on too wide for the post, but it's what it came with. It should be possible to push the toolpost out of the back of clapper and make custom holders to bolt to a "top-hat" nut made to fit in the back of the clapper. This is a good way to get a more rigid design for a long overhang keyseating tool, hacksaw or similar.
Mark Rand RTFM
Reply to
Mark Rand
Does not need to be anything special. A suitable sized chunk of hot rolled Mild steel would suffice. Keep your eyes peeled while walking the dog, and you are like as not to step over a chunk of spring that fell off someones Chevy.
Old Chevy spring is a traditional source for many things, as well!
A lot of the old tool shapes were quite practical, when there was a blacksmith shop, right out the door from the machine shop. Not so much, now. Yo are correct, though, when you say that light cuts and patience will get you to the end. It is exactly this reason that shapers lost their place in the scheme of things. There came other, faster means of moving metal, an dthe world moved on. They still show up in the odd shop, but they are no longer very common.
Cheers Trevor Jones
Reply to
Trevor Jones
============= As measured with "verynear" calipers
Clapper block is 0.755 thick 1.740 wide 2.710 high at widest part
tool post top hat "brim" 1.180 diameter 0.130 thick
body 0.995 diameter
slot width 0.430 inches
Your suggestion to make a "nut" to fit the clapper block to allow tool holders to be bolted to the face of the clapper block is a good one. I even have a piece of salvaged pump shaft that should be ideal material.
Most likely I will loctite a stud into the clapper "nut" and use a flange nut to retain the holders, possibly with the addition of an offset pin or SHCS to prevent the "nut" from turning when clamping. After a closer examination of the clapper block there is very little space for any drilled/tapped holes for straps. I don't know if this is "standard" but the clapper block also has set/grub screws to prevent the "tool post" from turning and a set/grub screw in the clapper frame into a dimple in the clpper block to lock it in place.
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
Reply to
F. George McDuffee
I have one about that size. After reading a British book on small shapers, I made my own tool holder to a pattern I saw in the book. It had come with an Armstrong-type lathe tool holder, chattered like hell because the tool tip was so far in advance of the clapper pivot that it was digging in. The forged crank tools positioned the cutting edge in back of the pivot so that it flexed out of the cut instead of digging in. I came up with a 5/8" bolt, turned the head so it was round, drilled and filed a square hole in it for 1/4" lathe bits just under the head, then turned up a sleeve for it that was long enough to position the tool edge just in back of clapper pivot plane. I then welded the sleeve onto a suitable chunk of scrap structural steel that fit the tool holder. The hole in the sleeve is positioned so the bolt's axis is parallel with the ram's travel. When the nut is tightened down, the bit doesn't shift at all. No more chatter, get a great finish on parts and things just work a whole lot more smoothly. The bolt/sleeve combination lets me position the tool in a lot more positions, too. Williams had something like it cataloged at the time, was like $300 in '70s dollars. Took me a Sat. afternoon and cost me zip since everything was scrap that my dad hauled home from work.
Stan
Reply to
stans4

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