Another newbie lathe question

I've been reading a few things (mainly catalogs) to select some cutting tools. I'm particularly interested in sets of carbide insert tool holders.
Does anyone have any links to resources for various standard tool (insert) dimensions, including rake angles, front clearances, etc. (all the good buzzwords I've been picking up in preparation for picking up a lathe).
I've seen references to designators like "CCMT 06" inserts, but I don't know what the specs on those are, or what particular metals/operations they would be suited for.

On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 20:46:08 -0700, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
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-------------- If possible stick with the TPU/TPG holders.
TPU/TPG inserts are dirt cheap. Unless you are in high volume production using exotic materials the other inserts will not be cost effective. Coatings are also marginal for home shop use. Use C6 grade for steel and C2 for everything else. You can even get mill cutters that will use the TPU/TPG [u = unground, G ground] inserts.
One place to start is http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE9&PMCTLG an example price {cheaper on sale and in the 10 pack} http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA50-3229&PMPXNO”1298&PARTPG=INLMK32 http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE4&PMCTLG
for the holders see http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE1&PMCTLG
end mills http://tool.wttool.com/search?p=Q&ts=custom&w=insert%20end%20mill&pw=insewrt%20endmill&rt=spelling&isort=score
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 23:33:01 -0600, F. George McDuffee
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Excellent post.
This assumes his machine can take a cut heavy enough to justify carbide
Gunner

On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 03:05:59 -0700, Gunner
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========Good point. Big benefit for the newby is this eliminates the need to grind your own HSS tools, which for home shop use are most likely an even better choice.
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

Gunner wrote:
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I used them for years on a 10" and later a 12" Atlas lathe, no problem. You DO want positive rake tooling, though. the negative rake is definitely for the heavy, production machines.
Jon

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    Well ... that depends. I use negative rake holders, but inserts with the special chipbreaker groove which turns that negative rake into positive rake. This on a 12x24" Clausing lathe.
    And I particularly like the threading inserts with the angled support anvils to adjust for the helix of the thread being cut.
    I go to small (55 degree diamond) uncoated inserts with a very sharp edge for finish cuts on steel where I care about the finish. (These were purchased originally for my little Compact-5/CNC lathe, but turn out to be very nice for certain things on the larger Clausing as well.
    Of course -- when I need to cut something special, I do grind appropriate tools from HSS or the like.
    Enjoy,         DoN.

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Part numbers???

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    How many of these things do you want the part number from. I've moved your question to the top, so I can make what I can supply interleaved with my original text.
    Y
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    My most commonly used holder is the Aloris BXA-16N -- a double-ended holder for negative rake inserts -- one for turning, the other for facing. This fits (of course) the BXA style wedge type toolpost which I got made by Phase-II.
    Insert numbers (from a box I keep on the lathe) -- TNMG-322 C6.
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    Iscar or Carmex IIRC -- interchangeable lay-down inserts, and interchangeable angled anvils between the two. The numbers are a function of the shank size among other things. I use 5/8" shanks to fit the BXA tool holders.
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    I can't give you a working part number for these. The holders are labeled "Tizit", and the inserts are positive rake 55 degree diamond shaped with 1/4" IC (I think). Before I ran out of the ones which came with the lathe (but was getting low) someone here on the newsgroups offered some samples for free. Once I got them, I realized that they were just exactly what I had hoped, and since nobody else had shown any interest in them, I bought the whole lot from him. Some ground only for right-hand turning, some only for left-hand turning, and some for both.
    Sorry that I have no part numbers -- they came in plastic bags. :-)
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    Enjoy,         DoN.

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Thanks. The last time carbide came up 'micrograin' was suggested for light cuts on old lathes. I have the 1/4" and 3/8" TT sets which I use on stainless and hard cast iron, but they fail quickly by chipping.

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    These are the sets of five (right, sorta-right, center, sorta-left, and left) which come with allen head screws (round/countersink combo head) and no carbide anvils under the insert? I've tried these, and found them to be fairly useless for exactly the reasons you give. And the price of the inserts is typically greater than the price of a set of five with inserts).
    The good ones -- AXA-16 or BXA-16 if you have the right toolpost -- even better with the 16-N version of the proper size for your lathe and the right inserts to match -- give a lot better results.
    The presence of the anvil makes a big difference, and the 16-N holder combines the part which fits the toolpost dovetail with the insert holders in one hefty lump of forged steel. Toss in the carbide anvil and you have proper support for the inserts, so they don't tend to break.
    And there are various styles of carbide (C-2 and C-6 are the most commonly mentioned) one of which is for tough ferrous and hardened workpieces, and the other better for non-ferrous.
    But still -- if the cross-slide and/or the compound flex, you can have chips from that. I forget whether you mentioned what your lathe was -- size and make.
    Good Luck,         DoN.

wrote:
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Good info, but don't skip over the business about micrograin carbides working better with less-rigid lathes. Traditional C-2 and C-6 can't hold a candle to some of the micrograins that are actually used for *high-positive-rake* milling in commercial work.
There was, as of three or four years ago, a real shortage of quality micrograin carbides in shapes and sizes appropriate for small lathes. I don't know the situation now. But the materials have impact strength and chipping resistance that traditional carbides can't match. And they can take a *very* sharp edge.
-- Ed Huntress

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It's a 1965 South Bend 10L, leather belt and threaded spindle, from a trade school where it was mistreated. The 40-position Multifix tool post is very nice with hand-ground HSS bits but I haven't seen any dedicated carbide toolholders for it.
HSS has been fine for my home projects, which are usually made from aluminum, cast & malleable iron, mild steel, drill rod, 12L14 and 303 stainless. I want to understand carbide better for when I use larger modern machines on 4140 and 4XX stainless in clients' model shops.
Jim Wilkins

On Mon, 3 Nov 2008 04:38:09 -0800 (PST), Jim Wilkins
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You can cut either 4140 or stainless with HSS quite successfully. In fact it was the common job shop method of machining nearly all metals up to the 1970's when I left the business. And probably still is in the smaller shops today. Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom)

On Nov 3, 10:05 am, Bruce in Bangkok
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Agreed, but unless I can postpone the job a day I have to use the tooling already on the lathe and the metal in the scrap bin.

On Mon, 3 Nov 2008 09:09:22 -0800 (PST), Jim Wilkins
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Of course. I thought you were saying that you were going to add carbide tooling so that you could machine 4140 and/or stainless. I was just saying that you could machine both materials with (what I thought) would be the added cost of the carbide tooling.
Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom)

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    O.K. So you need to get the standard shank insert holders. What size can your toolpost's holders accept? My BXA can handle up to 5/8" shanks, and I started using left and right shanked insert holders for negative rake in those. I got a pair of straight ahead (that is 30 degree angle on each side) holders from a eBay auction with 100 inserts per holder, and those work in the BXA-16N -- but the newer TiN coated ones which I listed work a bit better for heavy cutting.
    Note that the shanked holders from eBay were actually 3/4" instead of 5/8", so I had to mill 1/8" off of the bottom (*not* the top, so you keep the cutting point height level with the top of the shank).
    Your 10L should be sturdy enough -- perhaps for the AXA size tools instead, which means that the inserts would probably drop to 222 or 221 size in the TNMB style. Isn't the 10L also called the "Heavy 10"?
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    O.K. I've used (or abused) carbide inserts on hardened tools, including the flange of a CAT-30 tool holder to convince it to work in a quick-change holder for NTMB-30 end mill holders. I was amazed that the carbide could handle that with no apparent problems.
    Enjoy,         DoN.

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The slot is 0.82" high.
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Yes, it's a lower version of the 13" lathe rather than a higher 9". This one has worn dovetails so it's a bit loose in the normal work area and very snug at the ends. It's problems may be typical of old lathes, which is why I'm asking here.
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    O.K. Then you can go with the 3/4" high tool shanks at a minimum. Not quite 7/8" -- but I think that the next size up from 3/4" is 1" anyway. It sounds as though yours was made to metric dimensions, 20mm plus a bit of spare. :-)
    Anyway -- the largest shank you can get to fit is the best to use.
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    Hmm ... the cross-slide and/or compound dovetails worn? Perhaps it is time to redo those dovetails before working with carbide -- or tighten the gibs to work only in the worn center area perhaps while using carbide.
    Good Luck,         DoN.

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    Get a copy of MSC's catalog "the Big Book", which includes tables from at least two makers of inserts in the introduction to the carbide insert portion of the catalog.
    You might also find the same information on their web site, or on the web sites of the makers (like Valenite.)
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    It is all in those tables.
    Good Luck,         DoN.

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You would be better off with HSS and learn to grind you own cutting bits. Carbide has it's uses but there are things you can do with HSS that carbide won't do and you need a quantum leap in rigidity to use carbide without severe problems. Trust me on this!