Highest safe voltage

It is really more like 15v

kayak for a

highest voltage

Depends on how well grounded you are...and the net current carrying capacity of the wire and its source... In your case you are probably using a fairly low capacity battery for source..and fine wire to the LED's because of thier low current draw... the system will be more or less intrinsically safe, especially since its not floating in *salt water?

Having said that the lower the voltage the safer it will be... there is less force to drive electrons from one hand, say, to the other hand..putting current though yer heart. So..I would use 12vdc.. and figure the smallest wire that will carry the current required to drive the LED's... and use that...it should be relatively safe... however nothing is 100% absolutely safe, and you could screw something up and kill yourself, dead short too large a battery and create a divot in the street.

You need resistors in series with the LED's did you know that? You need those sized correctly.

or for 9 bucks you can get a string of those blinking programmable xmass tree lights..120vac... and run those off of a 12vdc car battery with an inverter attached to create 120vac required (50 dollars at radio shack).

Those have programming codes you can use to get all kinds of great effects, especially two strings running on different flash codes. Programming takes about 2 seconds, a set of dip switches.

Phil Scott

120vAC??? Salt water?? Jury rigged lights???

Can I have your boat when you die? :-)

They do make rope lights in 12v, A lot easier and safer solution.

See if you can fathom this...One time when I was doing refrigeration service work one of the electric defrost coils I was working on was covered in ice, including the live 240 30 amp size 8 wire feeders and non insulated bolted connetions.. there was 50 or 100 lbs of ice over this mess bridging the line voltage to the copper tube of the refrigeration circuit which is well grounded by means of being bolted to a large equipment rack in the equipment room that included water lines and heat exchanges.

another... you can see city utility crews using fire hoses to hose off live transformers and insulators on over head power lines.

Pure water does not conduct AC current to any great extent.. (it can be dissociated to H2 and 02 with DC current though).

The reason standing in a pool of water creates a good ground or skin moisture presents a good ground is not the pure water...its the impurity's such as salt in the waterthat creates the conductance...across a now very broad conductive skin surface.

Phil Scott

The smallest wire you are ever likely to find will conduct enough current to kill you despite your reputation as a lecturer. No wonder the American electrical system is such a mess.

And suggesting using a 120volt invertor is tantamount to Conspiracy to kill.

Yes electrocution depends on many circumstances but please stick to lecturing (nobody listens to Lectures anyway) and stay away from practical advice.

heres an online text that covers DC safety.

here is a chart

be sure not to make any part of your watercraft edible bcause it is truely written that you can't have you kayac and eat it too.

Don't you mean a hole in the water?

Use what is used on boats, 12 vdc.

From the NEC Chapt 9, Table 11

1. For nonsinusoidal ac, Vmax shall not be greater than 42.4 volts peak. Where wet contact (immersion not included) is likely to occur, Class 3 wiring methods shall be used or Vmax shall not be greater than 15 volts for sinusoidal ac and 21.2 volts peak for nonsinusoidal ac.
2. If the power source is a transformer, VAmax is 350 or less when Vmax is

15 or less.

1. For dc interrupted at a rate of 10 to 200 Hz, Vmax shall not be greater than 24.8 volts peak. Where wet contact (immersion not included) is likely to occur, Class 3 wiring methods shall be used, or Vmax shall not be greater than 30 volts for continuous dc; 12.4 volts peak for dc that is interrupted at a rate of 10 to 200 Hz.

When I was doing floats for parades we stuck with 12v auto bulbs and for flashers used an old TV tuner and soldered the wires on to the channel contacts. Sticking to 12v and keeping an eye on the source capacity always was paramount. One competitor decided to over load the system and we were out finding fire extinguishers. Pretty dazzling for the folks considering this was in the last century. If your in the water I would keep it lower than higher.

Hey, I want to see that! Pretty blinking lights on the water, some rocking motion, then a big flash, a ZAPPPP!!!! noise, lots of water a splashing flipping over backlite, then all dark, Cool.

Depends completely on what kind of amps you can push. What kind of batteries are you using?

Come on. Why are you trying to scare this guy to death? I have arc welded in the rain. Shit there are people certified to arc weld under water. Ever touched a spark plug wire by accident? Isn't that like

60,000 volts? It hurts like hell but my heart kept beating. Ever touched a 9V battery to your tounge when you were a kid? Can you still talk and taste chocolate cake? Of course. Why? Low amps.

Next time I get mad at somebody, I'll throw a 9V battery in their bathtub and watch them fry.

My advice would mimic Phil's. Be careful not to use batteries that can push alot of amps. You could get in alot of trouble quick with car batteries, ESPECIALLY of you wired a few up in series. Since you are in a Kayak, I would bet you aren't planning on using car batteries. Also, since you are using LED's you won't need many amps. Half a dozen D size batteries might keep you going for hours. I don't know about resistors in line with the LED's. I have no experience wiring up LED's

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Oh please. The man asked about *relative dangers. ... the smaller the wire and the lower the voltage the LESS danger...I specifically said that no system was 100% safe.

You enjoy being an ignorant jerk or something?

Conspiracy to

stick to

from

For the one time event, go safe, Get some super bright LED's, Connect 3 in series (3 * 3Volts = 9Volts) Repeat this up to four times per 9 Volt battery. To make the whole circuit work longer add a 10 Ohm resistor at the end of each series loops, this will limit the current/lower the voltage as well = not quite as bright but the battery will last longer.

• ___LED_____LED____LED____- | ___LED_____LED____LED____| | ___LED_____LED____LED____| | ___LED_____LED____LED____|

This gives you 12 LED's per battery,

I stand by what I said. There is NO wire small enough, that he could use, to make any differencce to being electrocuted if the other conditions were right. Certainly the lower the voltage, and that does NOT include using 120volt invertors, will reduce the risk.

Another option worth considering is using a 6 volt lantern battery. The difference in the circuit would be that only two LEDs would be in series, rather than three, but a huge number could be paralleled. Using just one battery reduces the complexity.

Overall, this sounds like the kayak is going to be fairly impressive!

Now... just imagine a laptop tucked away, connected via a serial port to a device with switches controlling the intensity of

2-300 LEDs. There would be just no end to the fun patterns that could be programmed to run automatically. (For example, bow waves or stern wash. It would be possible to make it appear as if the kayak is going 25 mph..., or sinking.)

...

...

John is *absolutely correct*.

The wire should be sized solely on the basis of the current to the LEDs, which at a minimum is going to be far more than what is required for electrocution.

Even suggesting a 120VAC inverter is perhaps silly when talking about safety, but all in the same breath as saying wire size makes a difference is just absurd.