Is the right pump fitted 240v on a 3 phase 415v ?

Hello, i an not an engineer but recently at the village hall where i help out we have had two new water pumps fitted to the heating system
and both have failed.The original pump has 415v phase 3 written in pen on it and the new ones have 240v printed on them.Could it be the installer has fitted the wrong ones?Thanks in advance for any answers.
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yimmyyam wrote:

That's hard to say. The 240V units could be dual voltage. The 415V marking could be an error.
How long did the replacement pumps last? If the voltage was this far off, I'd expect them to last no more than a few hours of run time. Otherwise, there are many other reasons for premature failure.
You'll need some expert help to sort this out. Either an experienced electrician or an engineer.
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Thanks for your post.We are going to get a second opinion from a different engineer.
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On 11/26/07 3:34 PM, in article snipped-for-privacy@x69g2000hsx.googlegroups.com,

1. I presume that even villages require a minimum of paper work before expending any funds.
2. Who decided what motors and pumps to get?
What did the purchase orders call out?
3. Can you contact the manufacturer?
Bill
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..When the heating fails we call a Corgi engineer we are left with a invoice for the work carried out.And yes Villages work the same way as the big city when it comes to funding.And what shall i look for on the paper work?Will it say we have fitted the wrong pump?

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On 11/27/07 8:40 AM, in article snipped-for-privacy@d61g2000hsa.googlegroups.com,

Did this engineer possess a Professional Engineering License? Did he sign off on the design? PEs who sign off on plans are responsible for their engineering competence. In most jurisdiction it is against the law to practice engineering if you are not competent and licensed.

When you buy something, the Purchase Order (PO) is a contract. It should spell out in detailed specification what is being bought.

Contact everyone whose equipment may have failed.
How much money is the village out? There is a good chance that Corgi is legally responsible. If it is worth it contact a lawyer.
Bill
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Salmon Egg wrote:

It is entirely possible to pass the courses needed to be a "Corgi Engineer" by the age of 19.
And that the person passing has a sub-normal IQ. I kid you not.

If so, it would possibly have been with an "X"..

See above. That represents the level of competence needed for their primary function -gas safety. Their knowledge of electrical systems is rather less. If you can find a "Corgi Engineer" who doesn't think a Squirrel Cage Induction Motor is something that gerbils play on - making the big assumption that he knows what a gerbil is - don't ask him to spell it. Seriously. He quite possibly reads out loud, moving his finger along the words so as to not lose his place.

Ah, there is that tricky word again, "spell".

There is a better chance that porcine aviation will solve the Global Warming Problem.
I suspect the scenario is along the lines of:
Heating doesn't work. Firm telephoned. "Corgi Engineer" arrived. Found two pumps not working. May have read the make and model and got two replacements, or picked two from a catalogue of pictures of pumps.. Fitted them. Went away. Charged unbelievable amount of money.. Pumps failed again.
I doubt very much whether he thought for a moment (ok, an hour, allowing time for thoughts to circulate in what passes for his brain) as to why the pumps failed in the first place..
--
Sue



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Palindrome wrote:

What's a Corgi? A brand name of equipment?
In some jurisdictions, it is permissible to use the job title 'engineer' when employed by a manufacturer and not offering engineering services directly.
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Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:

"Council for Registered Gas Installers"
Or an animal with a long body with erect ears and a fox-like appearance (and disposition).
Or both.
The "title" engineer" only has meaning in the UK when it is prefixed by "Chartered". Otherwise it could be your neighbour's pet dog..
--
Sue





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Palindrome wrote:

In the United States, the title conferred by the licensing bureau of each state is: Registered Professional Engineer, usually abbreviated as: P.E. It is a crime to use the term without a valid license. However, even the "Chief Engineer" of a corporation does not need a license to use the title. He cannot legally perform engineering services directly to the public.
In the UK and the USA, the term engineer originated from one who worked with engines, hence the terms "locomotive engineer" and "stationary engineer" were used. In Europe, the term "ingnieur" seems to have been derived to indicate an ingenious person.
Virg Wall, P.E. (California)
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Palindrome wrote:

Do these folks handle the electrical aspects of installing/maintaining gas fired equipment.
If not, an electrician would be a better bet .... except that there may be several modes of failure that could lead to shortened motor life that any old electrician (or EE) might not be familiar with.
If the replacement motor is connected correctly and appears to work (within spec) it still may be a good idea to have someone familiar with the equipment check various settings. Improper control settings (or other faults) could cause things like pumps to cycle too rapidly or run with too high a mechanical load.
Note to the original poster: You are better off letting a competent maintenance person handle this. When such people are hired and then fed 'advice' gleaned from the usenet, their hourly rate tend to go way up.
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Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:

In theory, they should bring in an electrician when the work involved more than one maintenance/replacement of the electrical supply and control system elements.

It could be something as simple as "over-enthusiastic" lagging. That is something I have come across. An owner carefully lagged all the pipes but then came to the pump. That "clearly" needed to be lagged too - so they gave it a nice thick insulating fibreglass wool blanket. And the motor..
--
Sue






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On 11/28/07 12:51 AM, in article
wrote:

Just what is a Corgi Engineer? I presumed that Corgi was the name of some engineering firm.
Bill
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Salmon Egg wrote:

It is someone who has obtained registered status with the Council for Registered Gas Installers. Registration requires a certain (very low) level of theoretical knowledge and the completion of (a little) on job training. However, it does give a certain amount of confidence that the guy does know enough to avoid killing most of his clients.
--
Sue

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snipped-for-privacy@sbcglobal.net says...

You'd better qualify that. I know a *lot* of engineers who are competent, doing engineering, and perfectly legal. Also, "competent" and "licensed" have little to do with each other.

Or reference the appropriate (one hopes, published) specifications.

--
Keith

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snipped-for-privacy@sbcglobal.net says...

Don't count on it. One of the larger ($100M budget, IIRC) school systems where I used to live advertised on the local media that they would no longer be accepting invoices unless there was a matching PO. All such purchases had to be invoiced by such-and-such date or they would not be honored. Yikes! Sounds like an open license to steal to me.

--
Keith

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yimmyyam wrote:

I suspect that the voltage marking will prove to be a red herring - if they had really put 415v across a motor winding intended to be used with 240v, the result would appear in seconds, with some combination of tripped breakers, blown fuses, smoke, flame, etc. The original motor was probably designed to run with its windings connected between the phase wires of the supply (which have 415v between them). The new motor is probably designed to run with its winding(s) connected between a phase wire and a neutral wire (which has 240v between them). No big deal.
Electric pumps failing in a short period is a big problem though. They tend to be very reliable and have a very long service life. The installer may indeed have fitted an inappropriate pump. Say, one with insufficient power or not matched to the application. I would suggest that it is worth getting a HVAC engineer in to see - but it is almost certainly going to be a different problem than the voltage markings.
--
Sue






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Many thanks for your reply.As you have suggested we have disided to get a second opinion from another engineer. I will let you know the outcome .
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yimmyyam wrote:

It may be worth investigating why it was necessary to change the two pumps in the first place.. There may be an underlying problem that caused the (possibly premature) failure of the original pumps - and was still present to also cause the failure of the replacements.
--
Sue


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