odd question: in-line gfci?

We're in a new house and the builder did not offer undercabinet
lighting. I had the electrician run an extra circuit to the backsplash,
wired to a switch, so I could use this later and put my own undercab
lights in.
The outlet is dead center on the wall above the cooktop, not an optimal
location and I don't want the undercab lights to just plug into the
outlet. My options are move the outlet down the wall and inside a base
cabinet (romex isn't long enough to do this) or leave the outlet where
it is. I'm thinking of removing the gfci from the line and just using
wire nuts to make the connection inside the box between the switch and
the undercab lights. Then finish it off with a flush stainless steel
cover plate. But doing this would remove the gfci protection on the
lights. Is this a big deal? I haven't found any in-line gfci modules I
could use or anything along those lines.
I'd really like to relocate the outlet so it's one less wall plate on
the backsplash but that would mean running all new romex between the
switch and box and route through the basement. Not impossible but a
pain. Even if I leave the box where it is and splice another 4' of
romex so I can relocate the box inside the base cabinets, I'd still
need to leave the wall plate to access the connection. So if the wall
plate is staying I'd rather just wire nut the line from the switch to
the lights and be done with it. Thoughts?
Thanks in advance!
Reply to
Zach Nelson
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Just be sure you still have enough receptacles serving the countertop and that they are still GFCI protected. That may mean moving the GFCI to another receptacle location, the next one in the string. The lights do not need the GFCI.
Reply to
gfretwell
The lights cannot be on the circuit(s) with the small appliance branch circuits. The light has to be on a separate lighting circuit. The countertop receptacles must be on one of the small appliance branch circuits.
REF:
2005 NEC
210.52(B)(2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets. Exception No. 1: A receptacle installed solely for the electrical supply to and support of an electric clock in any of the rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1). Exception No. 2: Receptacles installed to provide power for supplemental equipment and lighting on gas-fired ranges, ovens, or counter-mounted cooking units.
Reply to
electrician
The circuit for the lights is dedicated. I had it added specifically because I wanted to add the lights. The standard appliance outlets are untouched. Because this extra lights circuit is on the backsplash, the electrician used gfci, but since I'm going to use it just for mounted lights, I'm going without gfci protection.
Reply to
Zach Nelson
If you want GFCI protection on that circuit, just add a box and a GFCI receptacle in the basement where you can get at the romex easily, and feed the light circuit from the load side of the added GFCI receptacle.
Ed
Reply to
ehsjr
OK then, this is just what you suggested on the top note. You can blank out that box and use it for a splice box only
Reply to
gfretwell
| The lights cannot be on the circuit(s) with the small appliance branch | circuits. The light has to be on a separate lighting circuit. The | countertop receptacles must be on one of the small appliance branch | circuits.
How do you plug in the lights that are not permanent fixtures?
Here's my idea. Tell me if this would be OK. In addition to all of the required countertop service receptacles, there would be receptacles right up next to the underside of the cabinets, out of view. These would be on entirely separate circuits unshared with any of the countertop circuits. They would be GFCI protected anyway (and probably AFCI under NEC 2008). They would be of number to just be enough for the non-permanent lights under the cabinets, and all switch controlled.
Another idea. Receptacles _above_ the cabinets. The wire to the lights would run down behind the cabinets. Low voltage lights might have the transformer on top of the cabinet.
Reply to
phil-news-nospam
Cord and plug connected lights can be plugged into the small appliance circuits. I am not sure how you could stop it. The only required light in a kitchen is one controlled by a switch on the wall. ALL receptacles in the kitchen, pantry or dining room are small appliance circuits except one for the refrigerator. They have to be 20a and the ones serving countertops need GFCI.
Reply to
gfretwell
| Cord and plug connected lights can be plugged into the small appliance | circuits. I am not sure how you could stop it. | The only required light in a kitchen is one controlled by a switch on | the wall. | ALL receptacles in the kitchen, pantry or dining room are small | appliance circuits except one for the refrigerator. They have to be | 20a and the ones serving countertops need GFCI.
Since I want the undercabinet lights to be switched, their outlets would be switched. That's not so good for the countertop outlets. That and I want avoid using up the countertop outlets with lights. So my idea is to have separate outlets specifically for the lights.
NEC 210.52(C)(5) says that outlets can't be more than 20 inches above the countertop. That's very reasonable to be sure they are within reach. But the wording isn't so clear as to whether that actually prohibits other outlets above that point, or just means don't count outlets above that point to meet the countertop minimum requirements (such as the necessary number of them and horizontal distance requirement). I'll bend and use the 2nd meaning ... so interpreted that way, an outlet more than 20 inches above the countertop isn't serving the countertop. That could mean it can't even be on the same circuit as the countertop.
BTW, I do plan to be sure I have plenty of outlets in the kitchen as well as the shop:
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Reply to
phil-news-nospam
The configuration shown there is not correct for the kitchen. Excluding the fridge, the receptacles in the kitchen must be on 20 A circuits. 210.52 (B) (1)
Ed
Reply to
ehsjr
|> |> |> | Cord and plug connected lights can be plugged into the small appliance |> | circuits. I am not sure how you could stop it. |> | The only required light in a kitchen is one controlled by a switch on |> | the wall. |> | ALL receptacles in the kitchen, pantry or dining room are small |> | appliance circuits except one for the refrigerator. They have to be |> | 20a and the ones serving countertops need GFCI. |> |> Since I want the undercabinet lights to be switched, their outlets would |> be switched. That's not so good for the countertop outlets. That and I |> want avoid using up the countertop outlets with lights. So my idea is to |> have separate outlets specifically for the lights. |> |> NEC 210.52(C)(5) says that outlets can't be more than 20 inches above the |> countertop. That's very reasonable to be sure they are within reach. But |> the wording isn't so clear as to whether that actually prohibits other |> outlets above that point, or just means don't count outlets above that |> point to meet the countertop minimum requirements (such as the necessary |> number of them and horizontal distance requirement). I'll bend and use |> the 2nd meaning ... so interpreted that way, an outlet more than 20 inches |> above the countertop isn't serving the countertop. That could mean it |> can't even be on the same circuit as the countertop. |> |> BTW, I do plan to be sure I have plenty of outlets in the kitchen as well |> as the shop:
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|> | | The configuration shown there is not correct for the kitchen. | Excluding the fridge, the receptacles in the kitchen must | be on 20 A circuits. 210.52 (B) (1)
However, as long as each 20 A circuit serves more than one outlet, those outlets can be the 15 A configuration. The 20 A requirement is for the circuit, not the outlet.
The plan is for 6 of these outlet clusters. The 15 A ones will be on probably 4 circuits total (2 circuit pairs alternating between each outlet cluster. Each 20 A 120 V outlet will be on one circuit as will each 20 A 240 V outlet. The idea is for any higher power loads to be used on dedicated circuits. 10 120 V circuits and 6 240 V circuits, taking up 22 panel spaces. That's for the kitchen. The shop might have additional.
Reply to
phil-news-nospam
Yes. But there is no need for a label to tell you it is a 15 amp receptacle - we already know those are 15 amp receptacles just glancing at them. The only reason to put those labels there is to identify the branch circuit rating to which the receptacles are connected. The problem is that they must be 20A branches in the kitchen, and four 15 amp branches are indicated.
Ed
Reply to
ehsjr
Who's talking about "outlet" (I assume you mean receptacle) configuration?
The receptacles must be on 20 amp circuits. Your label indicates 15 A circuits for 4 of them, splitting the duplexes into 2 each.
Ed
Reply to
ehsjr
I didn't look at the text as labels, rather the whole thing as a legend, perhaps to generate a BOM.
Reply to
krw
|> However, as long as each 20 A circuit serves more than one outlet, those |> outlets can be the 15 A configuration. The 20 A requirement is for the |> circuit, not the outlet. | | Who's talking about "outlet" (I assume you mean | receptacle) configuration? | | The receptacles must be on 20 amp circuits. Your label | indicates 15 A circuits for 4 of them, splitting the | duplexes into 2 each.
These are not labels that would appear on the outlets. There is no intention to do so. Actually, this page was derived from one used to show a variety of NEMA configurations. The labels in the page are merely that of the NEMA configurations, but I had sunsequently taken the NEAM configurations off and left the voltage configuration. That is probably the label confusion.
The original plan for the kitchen was to have 4 outlets in each cluster, each a NEMA 5-15. Each cluster would have 2 20 amp circuits going to it, providing for a total capacity of 40 amps. The 2 outlets on one yoke would be fed by the same circuit. The 2 on the other yoke by the other circuit.
Some might wire that up with a shared neutral. But that can mess up the GFCI protection, depending on how one wires around it. There are ways. But I do not like tha appearance of GFCI receptacles in my kitchen so I would have that protection somewhere else, possibly in the breaker panel.
The idea of having the 2x2 cluster of outlets came from my desire to have 2 outlets arranged horizontally instead of vertically. An early design had a duplex rotated 90 degrees. Another used 2 single outlets side by side. But using duplexes would probably be no more costly than singles.
I would not want any 20 amp appliances plugged into the common kitchen outlets. And the code does not require 20 amp outlets; just 20 amp circuits and a minimum of 2 of them. I could run those 2 circuits to each of the 2x2 clusters and be compliant. I'd probably have more than 2 circuits. At the extreme, each 2x2 cluster could have their own pair of circuits.
But I also want to have the capacity for larger appliances in the kitchen, including those that might use 240 volts (we don't want to be running a 240 volt extension cord across the kitchen to another room to get power). So I decided having a dedicated 20 amp 120 volt and a dedicated 20 amp 240 volt outlet would be the way to go, in addition to the 15 amp outlets that are served by 2 to 2*N 20 amp 120 volt circuits.
The only catch I've run across is this. I would not want the 120 volt half of the dual voltage outlet to be powered from the same circuit as the 240 volt half. Being on the same yoke, they both need to have a common disconnect at the branch circuit origination. A 3 pole breaker meets that. But I'd still have to have GFCI protection at least for the 120 volt half, and I'd want it for the 240 volt half, too. There are no 3 pole GFCI breakers that I have ever seen. So this design is not yet complete.
This all started because I could not find this:
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Some people do need to ask themselves this question:
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I originally thought of doing this:
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I can't find anyone making such a faceplace. So I might have done:
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faceplate is definitely available:
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this might avoid some confusion other people might have:
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Dual voltage duplexes do have this issue:
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Or I could get really bizarre and do this:
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maybe this:
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I don't think so.
Reply to
phil-news-nospam
| Yes. But there is no need for a label to tell you it | is a 15 amp receptacle - we already know those are 15 | amp receptacles just glancing at them. The only reason | to put those labels there is to identify the branch | circuit rating to which the receptacles are connected. | The problem is that they must be 20A branches in the | kitchen, and four 15 amp branches are indicated.
What you see as labels are descriptions in HTML. If I knew that engineers would be confused by some HTML I would have left them off. The new version is different.
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Reply to
phil-news-nospam

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