Who makes a continuous online UPS with 240v in 120v out?

google finger broken?

By your decryption, your looking for an "active" unit Your 240v circuit should have 3 wires, hot,hot ground.

bring your banker for creative financing

|> By "continuous online" I mean that there is a an AC to DC stage followed |> by appropriate paralleling with the battery followed by DC to AC. |>

|> By "240v in 120v out" I mean that the AC to DC stage is designed for 240 |> volts input (utilizing a 2-wire circuit), and the DC to AC stage | (inverter) |> is designed for 120 volts output, sine wave, max 3% THD. Everything is |> single phase. |>

|> Autoranging input is acceptable as long as the nominal voltage swings of |> 240 volts can be handled. |>

|> I'm looking for 2400 to 3600 VA capacity, and a minimum 8 minutes run time |> at 1800 watts load. Form factor can be tower or rack. Expandable battery |> capability a plus but not required. Rack should not exceed 4U. Typical |> units this VA/w size are 3U and 4U. |>

|> Adding an extra transformer to a 240 to 240 model is not acceptable. The |> input and output stages must have the specified voltages direct. The DC |> voltage is not specified. |>

| | google finger broken? | | By your decryption, your looking for an "active" unit | Your 240v circuit should have 3 wires, hot,hot ground. | |

| | bring your banker for creative financing

That shopping site does not give enough technical specs, and does not identify the Powerware model number. Try finding that model on the Powerware web site and get full tech specs.

Secondly, this unit is too large. Try finding one with a NEMA 6-15P or

6-20P plug.

I already went through all the units on several sites, including Powerware, Liebert, Leviton, APC, and TrippLite. None found so far that meet the need.

| I like Liebert. You could check | |

| | I didn't see anything that exactly matches what you need, but decide for | yourself. One of the biggest deciding factors in selecting UPS, to me, is | the availability of local technicians. If there is a problem with a UPS you | don't want to wait 8 hours or three days or whatever, you want someone down | there NOW to get you up and running, whether that is a fix or a temporary | replacement or whatever it takes. | | If you see "dual conversion online" that is another term that suits your | continuous online requirement.

Liebert certainly seems to be a good brand. If they had a model I could use, I'd probably pay a little extra for theirs. But I did go through their model lineup and found nothing to meet the need.

Yes, I know all about "dual conversion online". I already have such a unit from TrippLite, at the 700 VA level, 120 in 120 out. But what I need next is around 2400 VA that can run on a 2-wire 240 volt 20 amp circuit with existing AWG 12 wiring (running new wiring is not an option).

There are "dual conversion online" UPSes made with 240 in and 240 out (and usually handle, and are marketed as, 208 volts). But that should tell you something. It tells me that they do know how to make the part that converts AC to DC in either 240 volts or 120 volt versions. And they know how to make the part that converts DC to AC in either 240 volt or 120 volt versions. And a few models (don't remember which manufacturer listed this) had the internal DC voltage listed as 72 volts for both AC voltages. So there is no real _engineering_ reason to not be able to build a 240 volt (2-wire) in and 120 volt out model. There could be a marketing reason (maybe people prefer to rewire at this power level, rather than remark and change voltage as I will be doing). But I think there would be at least enough of a market out there to sustain at least one manufacturer making such a thing. I just need to find who that is. I wish it were Liebert. I'd be happy if it were TrippLite or Powerware or APC.

If you had a choice between having to put in a new 240 volt 20 amp circuit and new 120 volt 40 amp circuit, which would you do?

And what if you already have a 120 volt 20 amp dedicated circuit in place with wiring rated for 600 volts, and panel space to change the breaker for it from 1-pole to 2-pole to get 240 volts? I even already have red tape to remark the white wire (I've yet to find anyone that makes cable with black, red, and ground in AWG 14/12/10 sizes).

I just don't want to add a transformer to get 120 because that's really an unnecessary cost (and high cost for 3 kVA).

| There are "dual conversion online" UPSes made with 240 in and 240 out | (and usually handle, and are marketed as, 208 volts). But that should | tell you something. It tells me that they do know how to make the part | that converts AC to DC in either 240 volts or 120 volt versions. And | they know how to make the part that converts DC to AC in either 240 volt | or 120 volt versions. And a few models (don't remember which manufacturer | listed this) had the internal DC voltage listed as 72 volts for both AC | voltages. So there is no real _engineering_ reason to not be able to | build a 240 volt (2-wire) in and 120 volt out model. There could be a | marketing reason (maybe people prefer to rewire at this power level, | rather than remark and change voltage as I will be doing). But I think | there would be at least enough of a market out there to sustain at least | one manufacturer making such a thing. I just need to find who that is. | I wish it were Liebert. I'd be happy if it were TrippLite or Powerware | or APC.

The particular models I saw which definitely used the same DC system:

TrippLite SU3000RTXL3U:

TrippLite SU3000RTXL3UHV: What I would like is a unit with the INPUT from the SU3000RTXL3UHV and the OUTPUT from the SU3000RTXL3U. Does that make sense now?

One possible option would be to make an inverter section that has two separate identical balanced 120 volt units that, like a dual winding transformer secondary, could be wired for 2-wire 120 volt, 2-wire 240 volt, or 3-wire 120/240 volt.

manufacturer

snipped

I seriously think that your going to find anything that fits your exact requirements. It might be time to consider 2 units one 120v and the other

240v. Having both in the same unit is going to cost big time. Watch out if the loads i.e. computers are connected to each other by Ethernet. You could have an potential problem.

Powerare also make a scalable UPS (Axxium or 9170+) double conversion w/ combinations of Power Supplies and inverter modules. Search CDW, I bought a 3kVA (available 3-9 kVA) setup through them for about $3500, next day delivery. I needed the 240 in and out for an AS400.

|

On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 08:54:06 -0700 SQLit wrote: | snipped | |> Secondly, this unit is too large. Try finding one with a NEMA 6-15P or |> 6-20P plug. |>

|> I already went through all the units on several sites, including | Powerware, |> Liebert, Leviton, APC, and TrippLite. None found so far that meet the | need. |>

|>

|>

| | I seriously think that your going to find anything that fits your exact | requirements. It might be time to consider 2 units one 120v and the other | 240v. Having both in the same unit is going to cost big time. Watch out if | the loads i.e. computers are connected to each other by Ethernet. You could | have an potential problem.

The design of such a UPS does not imply any such increased cost. It would simply have a 240 vac to XX vdc input section, and a XX vdc to 120 vac output section. And for many UPS series, those parts are already designed.

If they made UPSes this small in a completely modular way, where each of the parts (AC to DC, battery(s), controller, DC to AC) were separately choosable ("ala carte", or "chinese menu"), this might be it. But no one does that, that I have found (they do that at the 50 kVA range and up).

Some of my loads can run on 240 volts. But not all. It would be a much neater install if all the loads were done at 120 volts. But I have not ruled out switching the computers to 240 volts, and then getting a small

240->120 transformer for the few small remaining loads (consisting mostly of wall warts) that can only use 120. Maybe 300 VA will be plenty for those. I just want to fully explore getting the right kind of UPS before I fall back to plan B. The dedicated circuit is running on 120 volts right now and only has 8 computers on it. But this will be doubled in the next few months as I need to have several more different distributions of Linux and BSD continuously running. Rewiring to a higher gauge is not an option but changing voltage is, at least up to 240.

If I do fall back to plan B, my next quest will be for a small, neat, box that has a NEMA 6-15P plug, a 240 to 120 transformer, and at least one NEMA 5-15R outlet (but if it has several that can fit a bunch of wall warts, even better). The "international power converters" probably won't be continuous duty enough for this (meant more for powering a 10 minute shave or such).

| Powerare also make a scalable UPS (Axxium or 9170+) double conversion | w/ combinations of Power Supplies and inverter modules. Search CDW, I | bought a 3kVA (available 3-9 kVA) setup through them for about $3500, | next day delivery. I needed the 240 in and out for an AS400.

For $3500 you're buying all that expandability. I can't use it since I'm limited to 20 amps. But that's sufficient at 240 volts for all my expected needs for now. There are 3 kVA units in both 120 to 120 and in 240 to 240 at less than half that price. They just don't have all the fancy stuff like expandable battery bays.

But I see no step-down versions on the Powerware web site for the 9170 or any other model until you get above 30 kVA and then it's 480 to 208.

The CDW site lists lots of UPSes, but no voltage-in voltage-out data that would make it easy to find one that is 240-in 120-out.

| Check 'Network Protection' ... "UPStation GXT2' at he Liebert link. There | will be full guide specs available. There are probably also user manuals | and all sorts of stuff. There appears to be the option of 230V in (user | selectable as 240V in) and 120V out. You can go up to 3000VA. However, | batteries might be only 5 minutes, and V%THD could get up to 5% with 100% | nonlinear loads at crest factor 3:1. The 230V input looks like it might be | intended for European markets. Maybe it can be installed here. If it looks | OK call Liebert. If it doesn't look quite okay, call Liebert. :)

In the 3 kVA models, the only one that does 208 (can be configured for 240) has both 2-wire 208/240 in (this part is what I want) and 2-wire 208/240 out (not what I want because I will need to add a transformer to get 120 volts).

In the 6 kVA models, there is a 120/208 output. Two problems: this is larger (and more expensive) than I need, and: it requires 3-wire input. Based on reading the instructions and other details, it looks like what they did is combine 2 3 kVA units in one box under one controller. But my circuit is strictly 2 wire 20 amp (presently 120 volt, to be changed to 240 volt).

Maybe you could make your own. Tripp Lite, among others, sells just the inverter part of a UPS. Add some gel cells and a 240 V battery charger and there you go. This does lack a neat package and a way to shut down the computers when the battery is dying, but that can be gotten around with a little more work.

Did you look at MGE? Their 5 kVA EX RT model might do what you want, although it looks like they get the 120 V outputs with a transformer.

Wall warts? Go out right now and buy a string of C9 Yule lights. Note: don't buy the kind that flash off and on. One bulb in series with the wall wart for some of them, two parallel bulbs in series with the wall wart for most of them. Cheaper than a transformer and lends a festive air to the machine room. But you will have to uninstall and reinstall the lights every 90 days to be code compliant... Or just get some switching wide-input-range wall warts.

You might get to make this yourself, too. The 300 VA, 240 V:120 V transformers in Digi-Key and Mouser won't fit in a standard single or double gang electrical box, so "small" may be relative, too. MGE has a 2U power strip that might have enough room - you'd have to modify the input cord and add the transformer.

Matt Roberds

Liebert. The last one I installed was over 8 years ago. Recently moved from one plant to another. What a heavy pain in the arse.

By "continuous online" I mean that there is a an AC to DC stage followed by appropriate paralleling with the battery followed by DC to AC.

By "240v in 120v out" I mean that the AC to DC stage is designed for 240 volts input (utilizing a 2-wire circuit), and the DC to AC stage (inverter) is designed for 120 volts output, sine wave, max 3% THD. Everything is single phase.

Autoranging input is acceptable as long as the nominal voltage swings of

240 volts can be handled.

I'm looking for 2400 to 3600 VA capacity, and a minimum 8 minutes run time at 1800 watts load. Form factor can be tower or rack. Expandable battery capability a plus but not required. Rack should not exceed 4U. Typical units this VA/w size are 3U and 4U.

Adding an extra transformer to a 240 to 240 model is not acceptable. The input and output stages must have the specified voltages direct. The DC voltage is not specified.

--

----------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Phil Howard KA9WGN |

| | (first name) at ipal.net | |

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 23:18:05 GMT snipped-for-privacy@worldnet.att.net wrote: | snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote: |>The design of such a UPS does not imply any such increased cost. It |>would simply have a 240 vac to XX vdc input section, and a XX vdc to |>120 vac output section. | | Maybe you could make your own. Tripp Lite, among others, sells just the | inverter part of a UPS. Add some gel cells and a 240 V battery charger | and there you go. This does lack a neat package and a way to shut down | the computers when the battery is dying, but that can be gotten around | with a little more work. | | Did you look at MGE? Their 5 kVA EX RT model might do what you want, | although it looks like they get the 120 V outputs with a transformer.

I've seen a few that are 240 -> 240 -> 120 with a transformer on it. I suspect the reason is that even the double conversion online units are being designed to pass power around the DC section, which can't be done if it's just 240 -> 120.

|>If I do fall back to plan B, my next quest will be for a small, neat, box |>that has a NEMA 6-15P plug, a 240 to 120 transformer, and at least one |>NEMA 5-15R outlet (but if it has several that can fit a bunch of wall |>warts, even better). | | You might get to make this yourself, too. The 300 VA, 240 V:120 V | transformers in Digi-Key and Mouser won't fit in a standard single or | double gang electrical box, so "small" may be relative, too. MGE has | a 2U power strip that might have enough room - you'd have to modify | the input cord and add the transformer.

Lots of manufacturers make rack mount PDUs. Finding one that has the transformer built it, or room for one, would be best.

| 1.3.2 Design Requirements | A. Voltage: Input/output voltage specifications of the UPS are: | Input: | 120V Units: 0 - 140 VAC, 60/50 Hz, single-phase, 2-wire-plus-ground. | 208V Units: 0 - 280 VAC, 60/50 Hz, single-phase, 2-wire-plus-ground. | 230V Units: 0 - 280 VAC, 50/60 Hz, single-phase, 2-wire-plus-earth. | Output: | 120 V Units: 120 VAC (user configurable: 100V, 110V, 115V, 120V, 127V) | +3%, 60/50 Hz, single-phase, 2-wire-plus-ground. | 208 V Units: 208 VAC (user configurable: 200V, 208V, 220V, 230V, 240V) | +3%, 60/50 Hz, single-phase, 2-wire-plus-ground. | 230 V Units: 230 VAC (user configurable: 200V, 208V, 220V, 230V, 240V) | +3%, 50/60 Hz, single-phase, 2-wire-plus-earth. | | Looks like you can have 230V input (that can handle 240V as it can handle up | to 280V) and 120V output. But it also looks like you can't get it UL | listed.

Huh?

None of the 3 units listed has 240 in and 120 out. The 120V units have no more than 140 in. The 208V and 230V units have no less than 200 V out.

Which unit do you think has 240 in and 120 out?

BTW, looking further at those, I found that the 208V and 230V units inly differ in their listing based on market, and default frequency if code started.

I've gone through the Liebert web site already. They have none in the capacity range I'm looking for (2400 to 3000 watt).

Do you know of a specific model?

Although I don't recall which brand it was, I did run across one that had a 120/(208,240) input with a 120/(208,240) output. But it was twice the capacity I need (hence wasted cost) and it also requires the neutral wire (so I suspect it's really 2 120 volt AC/DC converters).

| Liebert. The last one I installed was over 8 years ago. Recently moved from one plant | to another. What a heavy pain in the arse. | | | wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@news2.newsguy.com... | Who makes a continuous online UPS with 240v in 120v out? | | By "continuous online" I mean that there is a an AC to DC stage followed | by appropriate paralleling with the battery followed by DC to AC. | | By "240v in 120v out" I mean that the AC to DC stage is designed for 240 | volts input (utilizing a 2-wire circuit), and the DC to AC stage (inverter) | is designed for 120 volts output, sine wave, max 3% THD. Everything is | single phase. | | Autoranging input is acceptable as long as the nominal voltage swings of | 240 volts can be handled. | | I'm looking for 2400 to 3600 VA capacity, and a minimum 8 minutes run time | at 1800 watts load. Form factor can be tower or rack. Expandable battery | capability a plus but not required. Rack should not exceed 4U. Typical | units this VA/w size are 3U and 4U. | | Adding an extra transformer to a 240 to 240 model is not acceptable. The | input and output stages must have the specified voltages direct. The DC | voltage is not specified. | | -- | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- | | Phil Howard KA9WGN |

| | | (first name) at ipal.net | | | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- | |

Not right off hand. 120/208v 50a in and 120/240v 50a out. 7'4" x 3' x 3'.

Do you know of a specific model?

Although I don't recall which brand it was, I did run across one that had a 120/(208,240) input with a 120/(208,240) output. But it was twice the capacity I need (hence wasted cost) and it also requires the neutral wire (so I suspect it's really 2 120 volt AC/DC converters).

--

----------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Phil Howard KA9WGN |

| | (first name) at ipal.net | |

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

| Not right off hand. 120/208v 50a in and 120/240v 50a out. 7'4" x 3' x 3'.

This is to go on a dedicated circuit with 2 wires plus ground, AWG 12. That circuit is now 120 volts and will be changed to 240 volts to up the capacity. So a 50 amp UPS is out of the question.