Copper Casting In Ancient America

Eric Stevens says in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

You said it not me, the distinctions are in the metallurgy.

When did I say he was unqualified. Don't turn me into a paper tiger (BTW when you use the propoganda ploys I feel its my duty to remind you of them). I said nothing about the qualifications and I think a non-professional discoverer or interested party has the right to make comments and conclusions. I can not help you out in this situation because you also have to realize that at some point these sites must be reviewed by people who either choose or not to write them up in the primary literature and until they are anyone can make all kinds of harsh or kind commentary. I take no side on the pits, I am unqualified except to judge the feeling I got from the narrator you quoted.

I hate to do an Inger on you Eric but at the end of this year or beginning of this year I submitted several papers by an american archaeologist who did extensive characterizations of the metallurgical artefacts found in the Andean highlands. Look back in google and you will see.

Reply to
Philip Deitiker
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Seppo and Tom, now you are into the philosopic logistic semantic corner which is one of my pets and always has been:

PLEASE READ ALL TEXT BEFORE YOU COMMENT IT: We have three scenarios: Scenario 1: It's a totally fresh type of studies that are on the agenda. Nothing has been found in Area A but we have a small hint of what's been found in Area B close by. This is as if there is a white sheet in front of us, which waits to be filled with '0' or '1'. In other word:

a) if one single '1' can be placed on the paper than A is non-'0' = an '1' existing area but we still don't know for sure how many '1' (hits) we will have provided we excavate all area A and analyse everything we find.

b) from our knowledge that Area B has shown a minor figured but existens of '1' we know that it's more than possible that we can find not only one '1' but more than one '1' That's the same as saying that the expected result of an excavation in area A is at least more than one '1'. We can't say anything more than that before we start our survey.

c) from our knowledge that Area B has shown a major figure where established '1' existens has been proven that's more than likely that we find a lot, no estimated figure at hand, of '1' in area A when excavating is finished. That's the same as to say that the expected result of an excavation in area A is that we have by then would have a lot of '1' on the white sheet we had before excavation began.

Now comes the situation for Copper Casting in Ancient America. There are a lot of copper artifacts found that dates up to 5000 BP down to 3000 BP where one or other group of people,

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Neither do we know only from that type of analyses if the people who produced the copper artifact 'only' know how to heat copper to hammer it or if they know how to cast copper as well.

One other thing we don't know for sure, is if only natives were working with the copper or if there was or wasn't a Phonenician/Greek/Egyptic sailor who during high storm got lost at sea and thus arrived to NA who started the production from knowledge he already had. We can note the dating of when it started, but not why and how. Nor do we know why it ended.

In other word we have a Scenario-a situation and the probability in this case to establish such connection is that we before analysing area A has had a possible '1' identification in area B. If we haven't 'the best' that could be achived while excavting and analysing our result from area A is a possible '1'-identification.

But there is one article which can be interpreted that there might have existed knowledge of copper casting and furnace building in NA during Pre-Historic Age: WHITE, JOHN R., The Rebirth and Demise of Ohios Earliest Blast Furnace: An Archaeological Postmortem, Vol. 21, p. 217.

You can't have a rebirth if there haven't been a birth which leads us to two possible scenarios since we have to exclude scenario a: either we have to accept that there are an amount of artifacts where the figure for possible casting process used in Ancient Age are low or high. No other alternative exists. Thus no one, Professor in Anthropology or not, can dismiss copper casting in Ancient America without proving every single copper-artifacts non-cast produced. Logic say so.

To return to Mallery's book Appendix A page 223-224: "When, at the suggestion of Matthew Stirling, I examined the Perkins collection of copper tools in the National Museum, I noted that there were a number of castings in the collection." OK that's Mallery's personal opinion expressed, but wait it continues: "..... Expert foundrymen who examined the Perkins collection of the Wisconsin Historical Society declared that many of these specimens were casts in a mold.(M's note 2 this chapter." Note 2 for Appendix A Great Lakes Copper Culture reads: "2. Proc. Wisconsin State Historical Society, Vol 7 (1876) p. 101".

back to page 224: "In the pentagonal chisels, there is additional proof of the effects of cuprous oxide. Copper when molen absorbs a considerable amount of gas. 'Some of the oxygen is trapped and combines, with copper to form cuprous oxide Most of it, however, escapes, especially from an open mold. The centers of the upper surface of some of these chisels were decidedly depressed or concave. This is caused by the decrease in volume(or shrinkage) of the molten metal upon solidification. It is a common phenomenon well known by all foundrymen and those connected with the melting and casting of metals. ......' To illustrate this action, a laboratory tst specimen was cast from Lake Superior copper....... "

End of quote from Mallery page 224.

Now we have reached a definitiv proven situation that at least some of the probably casted Ancient Copper artifacts seems to have it's copper origin from a casting process.

In other word - NO scholar can dismiss this in plain words. It takes concrete evidence and arguments to be put forward in order to dismiss the casting.

But it's more: "Virtually all of the Indian mounds in Wisconsin were constructed prior to European contact (AD 1600s). " .....

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and while the author of next url doesn't seem to even think of casting process, the distribution area mentioned is of great interest: "Characteristic copper tools include crescent knives, gouges for woodworking, conical points for weapons, barbed harpoon heads for spearing fish, awls and needles. It appears that worked and unworked copper moved along the water routes out of the Upper Great Lakes region, as similar copper artifacts have been found from Manitoba to New England. "
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My comment: what we do have is a possibly scenario-c which might be a possible scenario-b, nevertheless it's vital to stress that from a logic view it's vital for everyone who tries to dismiss large coppar mine-production, large coppar-artifact production to prove/exclude every Ancient Coppar artifacts from having it's copper produced in a furnace.

Inger E

Reply to
Inger E Johansson

"Seppo Renfors" skrev i meddelandet news: snipped-for-privacy@not.net.au...

While I am not a scholar of metallurgy I have one close by who is and who I speak with almost every day! Inger E

Reply to
Inger E Johansson

tk, it has and you should know it.

Inger E

Reply to
Inger E Johansson

"Eric Stevens" skrev i meddelandet news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

She isn't at all. There are several Canadian scholars and of course Doc in LA who are specialist in this subject and who participate in sci.archaeology from time to time when ever their time give them opportunity to do so.

Inger E

Reply to
Inger E Johansson

You implied that asking a historian was innapropriate. Why else did you mentoin that Aicheson was a historian while omitting the nature of his historical specialty?

Oh for a pin!

'must', 'Must' - who says 'must'. Such evidence as there suggest that (a) archaeolgist of the past have generally failed to recognise pit furnaces even when digging right through the, and (b) there is no evidence of which I am aware that anyone other than Conner and his associates are actually studying them. If I'm wrong in this last please respond to my enquiry as to the names of these people.

You are getting confused.

You are doing what you call an Inger if you think that the Andean highlands have anythingat all to do with North American pit furnaces.

Eric Stevens

Reply to
Eric Stevens

I did not say that Mallery's work was the only one on the subject. Clearly it is not.

What I did say is that works of others, cited by Mallery, appear to have been ignored and, perhaps, have vanished from sight.

Eric Stevens

Reply to
Eric Stevens

God I love it when the boffins savage each other.... nothing like the smell of dialectic in the morning....

Gunner

That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there. - George Orwell

Reply to
Gunner

Who is Doc? Can you name these Canadian scholars? And you reasons for claiming their greater expertise?

Doug

Reply to
Doug Weller

And Susan Martin works with a number of them, specialists in Michigan metallurgy, on a daily basis. And she's a real scholar, unlike you.

Doug

Reply to
Doug Weller

Eric Stevens says in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

Eric, sorry, I think you are mistaking what I said with what someone else said. I have not said any such thing.

??

This may be a fault of the archaeological agenda but I do not believe that to critique what work has been done to be faulty. You admit that errors were likely made, our opinions do not differ that much. Where we differ is in the conclusions drawn about many other uncharacterized furnaces, I think it is poor judgement in lieu of the lack of precolumbian iron artifacts that the furnaces were precolumbian iron furnaces, that's all.

No I think you are confusing what I said with what someone else said.

The individual who did work, I beleive the name is Hansen, not sure, did also work on copper culture in mesoamerica, and from what I understand, . . again.. . I don't want to read more into this than I should (else get nipped by T.K.) is that the copper culture diffused northward across the carribean in the SE U.S. At least there is some genetics that suggest such a migration might have occurred. Again I am of the stage of understanding metallurgy to read these articles and be fascinated but not well read enough to put myself as an expert. However I think that there are american archaeologist/metallurgist capable of investigating those finds.

Let me summarize.

  1. I had a feeling about the report that Mallery has put his own personal spin on his findings and that there were potential errors of bias, I thought you agreed with this.

  1. I made no specific comment about the special qualifications of a historian

  2. There are metallurgist working in the U.S. qualified to detail the archaeological finds at putative metallurgical sites.

YOu seem to be heavily fascinated with the politics of research on this side of the world (literally). It would be of interest what you know about the evolution of agriculture and stuff in the very place that you currently lived.

Reply to
Philip Deitiker

On Sat, 29 May 2004 07:06:25 GMT, Inger E Johansson wrote: [SNIP]

Your logic about the paper above is surely not based on the abstract I have: "The Rebirth and Demise of Ohio's Earliest Blast Furnace: An Archaeological Postmortem John R. White pp. 217-246 The Eaton (Hopewell) Furnace built in 1802-03 in northeastern Ohio was the earliest blast furnace west of the Alleghenies. Until archaeological work was undertaken, virtually nothing else was known about this industrial site. Archaeological excavation of the site and the subsequent broad specturm of chemical and metallurgical analyses of various materials recovered lead to a more precise understanding of the operation's strengths and weaknesses, and to the discovery that during the course of its short life, the furnace saw a "rebirth" due to use of an improved blast system and an ultimate "demise" brought about by a shortage of timber and the premature use of charcoal in combination with bituminous raw coal as a reducing agent. The Eaton Furnace's use of raw coal in this manner is the earliest yet documented in the New World."

[SNIP]

I find it incredible that Inger could use this article as evidence for anything pre-historic. But I guess not surprising. The level of her scholarship is......

Doug

Reply to
Doug Weller

Doug, I find it incredible that you without reading the full article dismisses the rebirth, I find it incredible that you less than 5 hours after I sent my lines dismisses anything. You better return when you have read the ref. listed in the urls. Btw - I sent a ref to one of the real leading scholars among the anthropologists/archaeologists for subject discussed. You didn't even notice. Read and present contra arguments to my lines resp. arguments ref for your statement. I know it will take more than one day for you to do so, take the time instead of entering a dispute without you having a clue of what you are up against!

Inger E

Reply to
Inger E Johansson

Why? What does the article say about the rebirth that contradicts what the abstract says? What EXACTLY does it say about the rebirth?

How long should it take me to find the abstract which contradicts what you read into the title?

Of course I did. Thomas Pleger, who wrote a book with Susan Martin (Susan Martin having her name first).

You once again posted without context. Here's the relevant part of my post: On Sat, 29 May 2004 07:06:25 GMT, Inger E Johansson wrote: [SNIP]

Your logic about the paper above is surely not based on the abstract I have: "The Rebirth and Demise of Ohio's Earliest Blast Furnace: An Archaeological Postmortem John R. White pp. 217-246 The Eaton (Hopewell) Furnace built in 1802-03 in northeastern Ohio was the earliest blast furnace west of the Alleghenies. Until archaeological work was undertaken, virtually nothing else was known about this industrial site. Archaeological excavation of the site and the subsequent broad specturm of chemical and metallurgical analyses of various materials recovered lead to a more precise understanding of the operation's strengths and weaknesses, and to the discovery that during the course of its short life, the furnace saw a "rebirth" due to use of an improved blast system and an ultimate "demise" brought about by a shortage of timber and the premature use of charcoal in combination with bituminous raw coal as a reducing agent. The Eaton Furnace's use of raw coal in this manner is the earliest yet documented in the New World."

I am not dismissing the rebirth. I am saying that you seem to think it means something else than what the abstract says.

Have you read the full article? In what way does it contradict the abstract?

Doug

Reply to
Doug Weller

...

From that URL, in direct contradiction to what Inger writes: "It is agreed that the difficulty of forming the sockets on the various artifacts would seem to require a casting technique or a high degree of artisianship to form by forging (hammering), but all metallurgical evidence to date indicates that the copper artifacts of the Old Copper culture of the Great Lakes Region were formed by a forging technique which included cold-working, and possibly some hot-working, and annealing or softening."

Reply to
Erik Hammerstad

OK, You are correct. I think it was Martin Harrison. I hadn't realised that the tag team had swapped. Anyway, my aologies.

Neither do I, but I do think any critique should be honest. That's why I took exception to high-lighting the fact that Aicheson was a historian while avoiding the relevance of his historical specialty. I'll give Martin credit and assume he did not know.

You must have missed the articles in which I said better dating is needed and that until this is provided the book remains open. I'm not arguing for them being anything other than pit furnaces and at this stage have no real idea of who may have built many of them.

There is no argument there. However to illustrate my point, a man who has done all his work with Andean and meso-American metalurgy is no better equipped to answer questions about North American pit furnaces than is someone who has a lifetime experience with the pit furnaces of Silesia. It does look as though Conner and his associates are the nearest thing we have to experts on North American pit furnaces.

Certainly metallurgy is part of the problem but while a metallurgist can characterise the finished product, he may not be able to tell you how it was made. Wootz steel is a classic example of this.

I agree that Mallery was well meaning but has made errors. This can in part be attributed to him working on his own. At the time he was working there was almost nobody else even considering the possibility of pit furnaces. However, the identification of castings does not seem to come into this category.

As I pointed out, that doesn't make them experts on pit furnaces.

I don't think I am heavily fascinated in the politics of research. In fact I object to those who want to play politics with research and scholarship.

One of these days I might be willing to change the topic in line with your suggestion. In the meantime I will briefly comment that the biggest influences on the evolution of New Zealand agriculture are the steam ship, mechanical refrigeration, and superphosphate fertiliser. But that's hardly a topic for any of the news groups that will receive this article.

Eric Stevens

Reply to
Eric Stevens

Doug, you still haven't got it have you: there exist no abstract in this world that can contradict the three scenarios. There exists no scholar on this earth that is able to say that to present anything at all against the Coppar production's volume and probable casting process, proof against every step will be needed. That's as simple as that. Which means that the Professor you thought to be the leading in this subject actually did a mess of it in this special case - the abstract you refered to.

You see from a logic point of view you can't find any articles, works etc that can change the fact that it doesn't take more than one 'dot'= '1' in my example to call for a full proof against the 'dot' being a 'dot' on the white sheet and not being a real dot.

That was it is all about. Not if I chosen a good or a bad example to illustrate the logic analyse with!

Inger E

Reply to
Inger E Johansson

Eric, in one of the url I sent there was ref to a dating of said mound in one of the Ref litterature. Definitely pre 1500 AD. Much earlier.

Inger E

Reply to
Inger E Johansson

Doug Weller says in news:1a4ultv8jsn0a$.ogq1gytd7pup$. snipped-for-privacy@40tude.net:

lol.

And their off agian . . . . .

Reply to
Philip Deitiker

Eric Stevens says in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

So there was no pre-agrarian or pastoral phase in New Zealand. No particular seeds or fruits or plants favored? I find that odd.

Reply to
Philip Deitiker

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