ANCIENT MARINERS: Andean-Mexican seagoing trade

Greetings, all,

Here's some interesting info about the ancient Andean-Mexican seagoing trade, bringing into focus especially the importance of metalwork for tracing these cultural links.

All the best,

Yuri.

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ANCIENT MARINERS: Strong evidence of Andean-Mexican seagoing trade as early as 600 A.D. by David L. Chandler

The Boston Globe, August 14, 1995. Pp. 25-27.

Archeologists studying the ancients empires of Central and South America have long noticed similarities in some pottery designs and food crops and wondered whether mariners from the Andean coast traded with their counterparts 2,000 miles to the north. Now, an MIT researcher says she has strong evidence they did.

Sophisticated and unique metalworking techniques, developed in South America as far as 1200 B.C., suddenly appeared in Western Mexico in about 600 A.D. - without ever being seen anywhere in between. The only reasonable explanation, according to archeologist Dorothy Hosler, is seaborne trade.

As far back as the Spanish conquest it was clear that the South American cultures had the capability for such trade. When Francisco Pizarro approached Peru in 1527, he saw large sailing rafts traveling along the coast. But until now, there was little evidence of how far they travelled, or the fact that there was any significant contact between the two great civilizations of that era, the Mesoamerican (including the Mayans and other groups) to the north and the Andean (including the Incas) in South America.

It took Hosler's innovative, detailed metallurgical analysis of ancient bronze and copper artifacts to provide the convincing evidence that this trade ranged over thousands of miles.

Hosler, an associate professor of archeology and ancient technology at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, has spent years studying the composition, design and metalworking technologies used to make a variety of bells, ornaments and small tools found in Peru, Ecuador, Colombia, and Western Mexico.

Centuries after their development in South America, metal objects appeared suddenly on Mexico's west coast. But the absence of any metal artifacts from that period in all of Central America in between, or in the interior and east coast of Mexico, indicates that these casting methods, alloys and designs could not have been exported via overland trade.

"Her findings have been very important, I think, in the New World picture," said Gordon Willey, professor emeritus of Mexico and Central American, archeology at Harvard University. "What she has shown without much doubt is that metallurgical technologies were diffused from the south, probably carried by travelers on rafts."

"There has always been a lot of speculation on the relationship between Mesoamerica and the cultures further south," Wiley added. "But to pin anything down as tightly and specifically as this metallurgical technology is very unusual."

The fact that the South American civilizations had coastal trade and fishing routes is well known from the writings, and at least one drawing, of 16th century European voyagers. They described oceangoing balsawood sailing rafts, capable of carrying anywhere from a dozen to

40 people and laden with goods, plying the coasts of present Peru and Ecuador. Some archeologists had speculated, on the basis of similarities in pottery designs, that these South American marine traders made it as far north as Mexico, but the evidence was ambiguous because pottery-making was so universal at the time.

"The Mexican case is very interesting," Hosler said last week in an interview at MIT, during a brief break from her fieldwork in Mexico. "It's one of the few places where advanced civilization arose without metallurgy.

"And then suddenly, around this area which was not a primary area of state-level society" - that is, not part of one of the great empires but rather a region of smaller chiefdoms - "metal artifacts start to show up around 600 to 700 A.D."

At the time, she said, there was "nothing with respect to metallurgy going on in eastern Mexico or Central America," where Mayan civilization, among others, was in its heyday, whereas the peoples of Peru, Ecuador and Colombia had thriving metallurgical traditions.

Unlike the use of metals elsewhere in the ancient world, where the focus was usually on weapons and agricultural tools, much of the emphasis of both the Mexican and Andean metallurgists was on decorative and ceremonial objects such a bells and jewelry, and small tools such as needles and tweezers.

That emphasis led them to develop metal alloys quite different from those found in other areas. Their bronze, for example, appears to have been formulated specifically for its color and sound qualities, rather than for mechanical strength, Hosler found. Bronzes used for ornamental bells and other items were formulated to give the appearance of gold (by adding larger than necessary amounts of tin to copper) or silver (by adding more arsenic than necessary to the copper).

Among the extraordinary similarities Hosler found between metal working in the two regions:

The use of the "lost wax" technique for casting distinctive ceremonial bells, a method that allows greater control over the thickness and sound properties. This involves carving the bell's shape from beeswax, then casting a hard mold (sometimes of clay and ash) around it. Molten metal poured into the mold melts away the wax and assumes its shape inside the mold, which is broken away after the metal hardens. Identical techniques and designs are found in Columbia and Mexico.

-- The design and manufacturing methods for producing items such as needles and tweezers out of hammered copper or bronze.

Distinctive methods, which Hosler describes as "very idiosyncratic," such as the way a needle's eye is made by folding, are found in both places. And unique designs of tweezers, used by men to pluck beard hairs, also are found in both regions. In Mexico, the tweezers became ceremonial objects, worn by priests as pendants.

"There's a whole constellation of artifact designs that were common to both areas," Hosler says. "They were used the same way, and the objects were fashioned the same way."

Hosler's detailed analysis of the metals themselves proved that it was mainly the knowledge of metallurgical techniques, rather than the metal objects themselves that was transported from the civilizations to the south; virtually all the objects found in Mexico were made from native Mexican ores.

"We know they weren't trading in ores," Hosler said,"because Ecuadorian and Mexican ores are very different in their isotope ratios. What seems to have been introduced was technological know-how."

In order to have imparted such detailed technological knowledge, she concludes, the visits must have been much longer and more extensive than would have been needed simply to trade finished goods.

What motivated the far-flung trading? Hosler speculates that the South American mariners may have been searching for a much prized bright-orange seashell, the spondylous, that was used to make beads and ornaments and for rain-making rituals.

The idea gets some support from Spanish records. Pizarro's chief pilot, Bartolome Ruiz de Estrada, describes capturing off the Ecuadorian coast a balsa raft carrying 20 men and trade goods that included "tiaras, crowns, bands, tweezers and bells, all of this they brought to exchange for some shells."

Another possible trade item was the hallucinogenic peyote cactus, which is prevalent in Mexico and may have figured in religious ceremonies among the South American people, where the use of psychoactive substances was widespread.

The evidence for extensive trade could affect the whole picture of how the great civilizations of Mesoamerica and the Andes developed, said Hosler, whose analysis of her evidence is detailed in a book, "The Sounds and Colors of Power," published by MIT Press this year.

"One of the aspects that's very interesting for archeologists," Hosler said, "is that we tend to think these two great civilizations"

- the Mesoamerican and the Andean - "grew without much influence from one another... This is fairly unambiguous evidence that there was more extensive interaction than was thought."

Others who specialize in Pre-Columbian American archeology agree. Michael Smith, associate professor of anthropology at the State University of New York at Stony Brook, says "the evidence she has, the evidence from metallurgy, is the strongest evidence. I don't doubt at all what happened... I don't know what more you could hope for, other than finding a boat with a sign that says 'this way to Acapulco'."

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Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto -=O=-

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It is a far, far better thing to have a firm anchor in nonsense than to put out on the troubled seas of thought -=O=- John K. Galbraith

Reply to
Yuri Kuchinsky
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Hmmmm perhaps this might do instead?

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Reply to
Seppo Renfors

Seppo,

What do you find interesting in that web site? It reiterates, without a shred of evidence and no references, the story of vast amounts of copper being mined by Europeans ca. 3000 BC-1250 BC, and shipped to Europe from the mines in the UP of Michigan. The web site's 'History' is right out of some of the more speculative Mormon views of history and North American archaeology, and has holes in it large enough to drive a lorry train through.

So, what do you find interesting and applicable to the present topic in that web page?

Tom McDonald

Reply to
Tom McDonald

Were such a claim to have any basis I'd expect there to be a port from where this copper trade (millions of tons) ? was shipped.. with sunken ships And the DNA of the visiting sailors, intermarraige and loan words. Pottery, tools, buildings, introduction of art, all missing. The roads used to carry the copper from the mines to the smelters and to the port and the accomodation/villages along the route. The growing of and evidence of European crops. Local Folk lore recording such industry....

The claims in the URL are at leasy lauughable

Reply to
George

||> >> Others who specialize in Pre-Columbian American archeology agree. ||> >>Michael Smith, associate professor of anthropology at the State ||> >>University of New York at Stony Brook, says "the evidence she has, the ||> >>evidence from metallurgy, is the strongest evidence. I don't doubt at ||> >>all what happened... I don't know what more you could hope for, other ||> >>than finding a boat with a sign that says 'this way to Acapulco'." ||> > ||> > ||> > ||> > Hmmmm perhaps this might do instead? ||> > ||> >

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||> > ||> ||> Seppo, ||> ||> What do you find interesting in that web site? It reiterates, ||> without a shred of evidence and no references, the story of vast ||> amounts of copper being mined by Europeans ca. 3000 BC-1250 BC, ||> and shipped to Europe from the mines in the UP of Michigan. The ||> web site's 'History' is right out of some of the more ||> speculative Mormon views of history and North American ||> archaeology, and has holes in it large enough to drive a lorry ||> train through. ||> ||> So, what do you find interesting and applicable to the present ||> topic in that web page? ||> ||Were such a claim to have any basis I'd expect there to be a port from ||where this copper trade (millions of tons) ? was shipped.. with sunken ||ships ||And the DNA of the visiting sailors, intermarraige and loan words. ||Pottery, tools, buildings, introduction of art, all missing. ||The roads used to carry the copper from the mines to the smelters and ||to the port and the accomodation/villages along the route.

Levitation, just as the Egytians moved the blocks for the pyramids, and the Easter Islanders moved their statuary. Some guy in Florida built a coral castle in the 1920s using the "technology". Saw it on TV

Texas Parts Guy

Reply to
Rex B

Well..... that alone should have been very attractive to you! I don't really know why you are asking me, as you are not really interested in my opinion - merely an opportunity to denigrate what ever that opinion might be - irrespective of what it might be. You see, you have already anticipated exactly that and started the denigration even though you don't know WHY I posted that URL! So your question is redundant and needs no answer.

Oh but that site tells of far more than merely that!!

Is "Mormon" a verboten religion in your mind as you hold that LABEL up? It is indeed true that "North American archaeology" dogma has "holes in it large enough to drive a lorry train through" (whatever a "lorry train" might be). There is a will to retain the holes as well - you know to protect the establishment dogma.

You can't tell? How about some key words like "metallurgy" + "mining"

  • "Gulf of Mexico" + "Acapulco" + "cast copper" + "Cahokia" + "copper trade" + missing copper.

Still, if you looked under the heading "Gallery" you might see something interesting.

Reply to
Seppo Renfors

Seppo,

You are funny. Don't ever change.

Tom McDonald

Reply to
Tom McDonald

[snip]

Let's see what we find there, Seppo.

"THE LOST PYRAMIDS OF ROCK LAKE"

"The group acquires through personal funds a 28ft. research vessel the - R.V. TYRANENA to facilitate in the quest. ... Aerial photography captured many new features in the water and on land. ... acquires RV Tyranena II ..."

Hmm... these folks have got ships, planes, looking for some underwater pyramids in a Wisconsin lake...

I think they should launch their own submarine next -- that'll find them pyramids in no time!

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=-

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-=O=- Toronto

For every credibility gap, there is a gullibility fill.

Reply to
Yuri Kuchinsky

||> > Hmmmm perhaps this might do instead? ||> >

||> >

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||> >

||> ||> Seppo,

Seppo

I found it very interesting. Thanks for posting it. Texas Parts Guy

Reply to
Rex B

All these years and still nothing substantive so far as I know out of Rock Lake.

This 6 year old web page from a definitely non-establishment site is interesting:

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Doug

Reply to
Doug Weller

You should have posted

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to begin with.

Eric Stevens

Reply to
Eric Stevens

Eric,

The Rock Lake stuff is interesting, but doesn't relate to the issue of movement of copper in the New World. The link he posted does. It is just that that url is full of recycled claims without any evidence, and has been strongly challenged without successful rebuttal. IMHO. Of course, Seppo could have attempted to support that info, but chose not to.

Therefore, since Seppo didn't want to explicate his views on the topic, he changed the topic. The second url is a head-fake.

Tom McDonald

Reply to
Tom McDonald

Ahhh..... how's that for a reaction from one of the Establishment Dogma Protectors!! :-)

Reply to
Seppo Renfors

No problems - have a look at the link by Doug as well.

Reply to
Seppo Renfors

You mean to say all that history in the page I pointed to as a starting point - is not worth looking at - or what is there to be afraid of on that page?

Whatever you might think about their theories, there is one thing that is particularly interesting there - the claimed hiatus of mining between 1200 BC and 900 AD. Didn't you see that?

Reply to
Seppo Renfors

Nothing wrong with that. Here we had a plane fly over for weeks in a grid pattern, searching for minerals underground! They have already used sonar and video. Sonar is a fairly common tool for underwater research - side scan sonar is fairly sophisticated.

2002 "RLRS as team does more sonar side scan work to recapture correct DGPS (Differential GPS) readings that were faulty due to satellite equipment linkup problems on some targets. Additional underwater video work may resume with ROV & Divers later on in the year for Rock Lake video documentary."

I have heard about ancient trade routs down to Mexico having existed some time ago from elsewhere. If so, then what is there to prevent copper having been traded along the trade routs too? If it did go down to South America where extensive trade networks did exist, then the "missing copper" may have a partial answer at least.

Reply to
Seppo Renfors

When someone complained about the page you posted you said to look at the 'gallery'. When I sai you should have directly posted the URL of the gallery you said I should be looking at the original page.

Which one do you really mean to direct us to?

Yep - that story is old hiatus.

Eric Stevens

Reply to
Eric Stevens

Seppo,

This claim flies in the face of the evidence of copper from the UP of Michigan being used from ca. 7000 ybp through the coming of the French. The Old Copper complex dates from about 3000 BC to something like 1000 BC (depending on location). Mississippian cultures began about 800-900 AD, and also used copper. I wonder why these two dates were chosen by the website's authors. I suspect it might have had to do with the florescence of the Old Copper Complex and the rise of the Mississippian cultures; although they clearly relate those dates to events in Europe, too.

However, copper use never stopped, and mining in the UP of Michigan continued. Red Ochre, Hopewell, Effigy Mound, Mississippian, Oneota (ca. 400 BC--European contact) were all manifestations of Indian culture in the American midwest that used copper. Most of the copper was from the areas we've been discussing.

There was no hiatus in copper mining.

Tom McDonald

Reply to
Tom McDonald

How the hell can you have "Red Ochre, Hopewell, Effigy Mound" cultures at 400 BCE when the "Effigy Mound" people didn't appear till about 600 AD? The Red Ochre (from about 500 BCE), Hopewell (from about 100 BCE) cultures did overlap but both were gone by 600 AD.

I note you point to Iowa for a claim re-Michigan........

"Copper was obtained through trade with groups of the Old Copper complex to the north, who had been accessing the extensive Lake Superior copper deposits since at least 7,000 BP." - Susan R. Martin: "Wonderful Power: The Story of Ancient Copper Working in the Lake Superior Basin"; ...... Hmmmmm.... *not* a very reliable source!!

Red Ochre: "Unfortunately, little else is known of this culture, as reliable radiocarbon dates are scarce and few human physical remains have been studied to date." - Jennifer R. Hass: "Human Skeletal Remains from Two Red Ocher Mortuary Contexts in Southeastern Wisconsin,"

Some artefacts of Lake Superior copper is claimed to have been found with these burials. The claim requires there to be a Lake Superior copper "signature" to make the claim. I'm certain there are more than ONE "signature" required for the copper from that area considering the variety of forms it is found in there. Wouldn't this also require a knowledge of the composition to claim a "signature" for it? IF so, then why is this knowledge not readily available? It is perhaps merely an assumption it is copper from Lake Superior?

Of course c14 dated mines during that claimed hiatus period in Michigan would answer the question - only I don't know how it is possible to date a hole.

Reply to
Seppo Renfors

Seppo,

'ca. 400 BC--European contact'. 'From about 400 BC to European contact'. Sorry you didn't grasp that.

Where did I point to Iowa?

Then why did you choose it?

The Riverside site is Red Ochre. It is probably the best-studied Red Ochre burial site. It is the context from which R666/55786 comes. It's well-known, and well-studied. Curious you didn't follow up on that.

That's for you to research and provide evidence for. Ask Inger the value of this sort of 'what-if' scenario.

Wouldn't this also require a

From the Lake Superior area, not from the lake. But Seppo, surely you've followed all the links and read up on the what makes Lake Superior-region copper identifiable?

That's your assumption. Why not follow it up yourself?

Tom McDonald

Reply to
Tom McDonald

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