E10 (ethanol/ gas) and 2-cycle engines

I have been told that the ethanol is bad for the carbs on small engines. All my modern small engine powered devices came with warnings to not use fuel with more than 10% ethanol. The Honda powered stuff have stickers with this warning. I was talking to the woman at the local tool rental place and she told me that they were having all sorts of small engine powered equipment problems until they switched to ethanol free fuel. They tried Sta-Bil first and it helped a bit but since they changed to ethanol free fuel and require customers to also use this fuel their fuel companent related problems have drastically decreased. Ethanol free fuel is available here on South Whidbey Island for about 25 cents more per gallon. Since I started using the stuff about a year ago I am also having way fewer fuel related problems. One weed whacker that I have would experience clogging of the main fuel passage in the carb. It would only idle. Pulling on the throttle would cause it to lean out and die. Pulling the carb apart I could see, with a magnifier, brownish crud in the fuel passage. Since changing fuels the carb has been working properly. Eric

Use Premium gas. No ethanol in it around here... I use it in all small engines and my old snow plow truck. UP of Michigan, btw.

My circa 1987 Stihl doesn't care. I don't drain it, run it dry, or use Stabil, and it always starts with a couple pulls. It's not unusual for it to sit idle for 6 months.

On the other hand, my little Yamaha inverter generator won't tolerate sitting with fuel in the carb for more than a few months. But it's a tiny 4-stroke.

Your Stihl will work fine on ethanol blends. Mine does. And I've been using ethanol blends in my Husquavarna since the late 70's and the only issue was replacing the rubber fuel line going into the carburetor.

Hmm, well how about stickers for engines that can burn it?

Woah, Whidbey island looks nice. (There's a certain sense of security on an island.)

about $0.50 here, (I think), but no matter, an ounce of prevention and all that.

Thanks, George H.

Grin, I love my Stihl, inherited from previous owner of my house, so I can only say it's at least 15 yr's old.

Oh, even little 4-stokes.

George H.

Good to know, Thanks. It might be good for those engines that can burn "most anything" to advertise that fact.

George H.

I can't speak for chainsaws but outboards have been running on the "new" gasoline ever since it became available generally with few problems so you are not going to experience any mechanical problems.

On the other hand some outboard manuals warn against the use of alcohol containing fuels as the "rubber" seals and hoses may not be alcohol resistant, but a manual for your saw should tell you whether this particular problem is applicable to your saw.

I would comment that I ran a Mercury 3 HP outboard for several years on alcohol mix gasoline with no problems although the Owner's Manual contained a warning about alcohol.

John B. fired this volley in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

Was this during WWII?

Merc makes a THREE HP outboard? After 1962?

Lloyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" fired this volley in news:XnsA33CD8DE2F4A0lloydspmindspringcom@216.168.3.70:

Ahh... Thailand. Yep... you can probably get pole motors, too.

Lloyd

snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com on Thu, 29 May 2014 09:25:13 -0700 (PDT) typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

For me, I am fortunate to have an alcohol free gas station "nearby".

My lawnmower's tank will dry out, so I run it dry, or near dry before I put it away. But, first thing in the spring, filled from the jug of pure gas (which had set in the shed over the winter) it fired up with not a whole lot of difficulty. I could not say the same with the prior jugs of "whatever is in the pump" at Safeway.

The ethanol free gas web site is a big help. Otherwise, you are into "boutique" gas in quart cans at the hardware store.

tschus pyotr

-- pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

That's generally the key to maintenance-free 2-strokes. But I haven't had any problem with year-old 2-stroke or regular gas here or back in LoCal EVER. Everything fires right up, and I don't run the weed eater (currently a Ryobi) dry. I do use it briefly every few months, even in the winter, though. Maybe that makes a difference. I just fired up my old Murray walk-behind mower on 2 year old gas and it took some extra priming but fired right up. Nary a problem here in So. Oregon.

I run standard E10 in everything I own and have never had a problem.

The guys at Lewis Power Equipment say they have to repair chainsaws all the time from E10 use. Unleaded ethanol-free premium is $4.99/gal here in town, $1.20 more than regular unleaded. Lewis also states that any gas which is more than a month old is considered bad, and tossable at 3 months. I -totally- disagree with that sentiment. They're a Stihl repair depot, too.

If you're not having problems, why change methods? At worst, you might have to boil out a carb at some time in the future. But it's good to know how to repair your engines, so get a repair book for it and do the job yourself. It'll take you a couple hours the first time and an hour the second. No worries.

I have switched to a metal can with a twist off top - has real gas and oil mix to 50:1. Loews and HD sell them. Commercial guys use it on saws and such since they don't want to mix up every day or they have trouble of their tank sucking in air at night and depositing water.....

Parts in side corrode and rust. Had to re-build mine.

It is like white gas in the old days - gasoline (by number grade) and no extras. Used in lamps and stoves.

This is that stuff and 50"1. cheap by any charge to me replacing carbs and such. Flots just 'rust' away. The water and chemicals create an acid bath.

Martin

Good to know, Thanks. It might be good for those engines that can burn "most anything" to advertise that fact.

George H.

========================================================================== Hi George,

I just stopped in to see if my cross-posted reply to rangersucks ever got through, and here I run into one of my favorite subjects... Sorry for the messy posting but I don't have a newsreader anymore and I have no reason to get one. This is a one-shot.

I can't stick around to get into this, but you seem to be genuinely interested, so here are some facts that may help or confuse you, depending on which way you tilt:

Ethanol will not gum up a carb or an engine. But they often mix it with low-grade gasoline (under 91 octane, among other, bigger issues) and that gas *can* crap your engine. It does seem more prone to varnishing the carb jets, but that isn't because of the ethanol.

Ethanol will not do damage to a carburetor, large or small. *Methanol* will do damage to aluminum or zinc (or brass, I think) if it's left in the carburetor bowl too long. Race cars that burn methanol generally drain the carbs, and often the tank, between races. The ethanol-damage myth probably is a carryover from admonitions about methanol, dating back to the 1930s.

Ethanol *will* eat some kinds of gaskets. I got little bits of damaged O-rings in my lawnmower carb soon after they started with the ethanol in pump gas. I had to change gaskets and blast the carb with carb cleaner every season for a couple of years, until I learned what was happening and sought come ethanol-resistant gaskets. Newer ones seem to have solved this. Obviously, the material in automobile gaskets is immune now.

The MIT report on efficiency with ethanol was misrepresented in the posts here. I read all 61 pages of it, and the story is that up to 20% or so ethanol will allow enough BMEP from boosted compression to increase efficiency in a high-speed highway cycle, with long runs above 60 mph and peak over 80 mph, if you are comparing a very small turbo engine with a much larger normally-aspirated one. That engine cycle is not used in EPA city/highway cycle comparisons. In normal driving, the MIT report says, there is almost no difference -- and required boost can be achieved with spark retardation that is so low it has almost no effect on performance. At some point, the lines of volume efficiency cross, where the lower caloric content of ethanol is compensated by the very high turbo boost that ethanol allows. The report is worth reading.

FWIW, I read SAE engine-research reports at least once or twice a month. That's where most of my info comes from.

Happy motoring...

Ed Huntress

You can take the un-gasoline, pour it into a transparent container, and add water. Let it sit. The water & alcohol will bond, and sink to the bottom. Carefully suck off the gas on top.

You can take the un-gasoline, pour it into a transparent container, and add water. Let it sit. The water & alcohol will bond, and sink to the bottom. Carefully suck off the gas on top.

I have been told in the past that ethanol was added to low grade gasoline in order to make it suitable to burn in cars. And maybe that's the difference. Lower grade gas that has added ethanol is actually the culprit. When I use the ethanol free gas it is a higher grade and so does not "gum up the works". Eric

I have been told in the past that ethanol was added to low grade gasoline in order to make it suitable to burn in cars. And maybe that's the difference. Lower grade gas that has added ethanol is actually the culprit. When I use the ethanol free gas it is a higher grade and so does not "gum up the works". Eric

=====================================================================

I don't know which came first, but my (unresearched) understanding is that they can use a lower-grade gasoline to mix with ethanol because the ethanol boosts the effective octane rating. It also is conventional wisdom (again, unresearched on my part) that low-octane gasoline may be low on detergents and other additives.

Before it was required, there was some use of ethanol in gasoline to replace the octane-boosting effect of tetraethyl lead, which was outlawed in 1995.

All gasoline sold as motor fuel in the US also has been required to contain detergents since 1995 -- a result of previous maintenance problems with fuel injectors. Whether they short-change the additive quality of gas they mix with ethanol now or not, I can't confirm with any authoritative data.

Ed Huntress

ethanol is *almost always blended* with 84 octane fuel. Your engine will run like s*it without the ethanol.

I don't think race cars that use methanol use carburetors.

Which MIT report and what was misrepresented?

MIT has published dozens of articles on ethanol efficiency. The only MIT article I saw posted was intended as a reference to counter a particular false claim that was made.

retarding spark is a compromise that decreases efficiency. Fuel that burns late in the power stroke produces mostly heat out the exhaust.

And the other potential efficiency gain from ethanol blends is that you can get the same power from a much lighter engine Removing a large amount of dead weight allows for lighter suspension and chassis.

But there is no incentive for automakers to design cars that perform better on ethanol blends as long as the EPA requires fuel economy testing to done with straight gasoline without ethanol.