Integrated Coal Gasification Combined Cycle power station - find exist!

Hi all

I was about to do another whimsical post, but then remembering female abilities to hunt information, went did a web-search first.

AI came back with this:

A "coal iron oxygen gas-turbine steam plant combined cycle" refers to an Integrated Coal Gasification Combined Cycle (IGCC) system, specifically an oxygen-blown IGCC, where coal is gasified using oxygen (instead of air) to produce a clean fuel gas. This fuel gas then powers a gas turbine for electricity, and the heat from the gas turbine's exhaust is used in a steam turbine to generate more electricity, forming a combined cycle that increases overall efficiency and reduces emissions compared to traditional coal plants.

Find everyone is already there, searching on "IGCC". It's "too abvious".

I could see that with "tonnage" oxygen, such plant is feasible. I visualised using fluid circuit of Fe-C to dissolve coal, clean (desulphurise?) and react C with O2. Exhaust is pure CO2. Sequester to exhausted gas fields or use in mega greenhouses to grow biomass.

Obvious advantage - a coal heap is the only way of securely having a year's supply of fuel. Even if you have no coal yourself, in fair weather you keep your stocks high, and if things go wrong you have a long time to get alternative solutions in place.

Japan built new coal-fired power-stations after the Fukishima nuclear accident even though they have no coal source themselves because they realised they need a "buffer".

Urmm - it's difficult for someone deciding your "democratic credentials are not good enough" to deny you your coal-pile - you simply gather it back up again. Destroy the power-station and not many will be convinced the party who did it is your friend...

Lot of national security arguments in its favour.

Anyone have any experience of this?

Best wishes

------------------------------------

I have no hands-on experience but (because) I've studied it with the help of my chemistry degree. Much is possible, what's practical depends on economics, availability and waste disposal. It's largely a problem in chemical engineering, a separate degree. Everything close to practical and a lot that isn't has already been tried, much in Germany during WW1 and 2.

I think coal gasification is too complex and maintenance intensive for a small scale and I don't want to become a full time power plant engineer. Wood is demanding enough.

Personally I have the other storable solid fuel, self-gathered firewood in metal roofed sheds and some solar, both practical on a home scale, and the smokeless Jotul-copy wood stove is somewhat useful for cooking, hot water, annealing and hardening. The price of LiFePO4 batteries has fallen low enough to avoid the hassles of other types and solar panels are nearing $0.50 per Watt. I use laptops as recording TVs and power them and an Alpicool T60 inverter fridge/freezer from solar charged batteries, the AC-only gear such as monitors and the TV antenna amp from a $50 Bestek 300W sine inverter. Most other DC appliances are too expensive and like the microwave and coffee pot not used enough to cost much. I dry laundry outdoors, under a 4' deck roof overhang for 2-3 days in damp weather. In winter the laundry freeze-dries. Air conditioning costs me around $20 a month for July and August, not worth a large capital investment to change. They and the window fans for cool nights are on Kill-A-Watt meters.

Wood stove kettle hot water can be poured into the washing machine. I modified garden sprayers with sink spray hoses for hot showers when the power grid is down. They stay filled by the door to put out brush fires.

I don't have $$ cable TV or wired Internet, the reason for my 10GB monthly cellular data limit on a $35 plan. So far I haven't had to buy extra data.

The compromises in steam locomotive design illustrate the tradeoffs between efficiency and complexity. They rarely condensed the steam as was done on ships to decrease fuel and clean fresh water consumption, because air condensers were too bulky and fragile. Instead they used the cylinder exhaust to increase firebox draft because their smokestacks had to be short and inefficient to clear bridges and tunnels.

Condensers on locomotives could recover water but could not create a vacuum which enhanced the efficiency. As far as I know... Heard of the South African locos. They had coal but not oil and strong political reasons to bear the complexity in order to transport consuming coal. Yes the non-condensing version of the class were considered absolutely excellent. Cornish beam engines pumping could on 50psi (maybe 55psi or 60psi in that case) could reach 10.6% efficiency coal in the boiler to water down the adit. That is not "all other things being equal" !! Implies the engine must be up near the Carnot Cycle thermodynamic limit of about 18%. The "direct condenser" was probably "significantly to blame". I assume that at 50psi the boiler could tolerate lubricating oil in the return feed - which was warmed from condensing the steam. If I get it right - about 1/4 to 1/3rd of the power came from the condenser vacuum under the piston. The huge pistons eg. 2m diameter - probably made for an enormous expansion-ratio - lower starting pressure, but much higher expansion ratio?

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@void.com...

Condensers on locomotives could recover water but could not create a vacuum which enhanced the efficiency. As far as I know... Heard of the South African locos. They had coal but not oil and strong political reasons to bear the complexity in order to transport consuming coal. Yes the non-condensing version of the class were considered absolutely excellent. Cornish beam engines pumping could on 50psi (maybe 55psi or 60psi in that case) could reach 10.6% efficiency coal in the boiler to water down the adit. That is not "all other things being equal" !! Implies the engine must be up near the Carnot Cycle thermodynamic limit of about 18%. The "direct condenser" was probably "significantly to blame". I assume that at 50psi the boiler could tolerate lubricating oil in the return feed - which was warmed from condensing the steam. If I get it right - about 1/4 to 1/3rd of the power came from the condenser vacuum under the piston. The huge pistons eg. 2m diameter - probably made for an enormous expansion-ratio - lower starting pressure, but much higher expansion ratio?

---------------------------------------- This describes RMS Titanic's propulsion plant at the level of technical detail typical for data on that heavily researched ship.

Unlike the 4+ knots faster all turbine Lusitania and Mauretania, the Titanic's Olympic class was optimized for fuel efficiency and less vibration. There's no way she could have been attempting a record crossing time. Holding speed near ice was standard practice and she apparently diverted south of reported ice on the normal westbound track, to where the ice hadn't been seen.

The testimony at the two inquests shows how much eyewitness accounts can vary even when there's nothing to hide.

Would coal gasification be anything like wood gasification? I've watched a few videos on it (wood) and it seems like an awful lot of work.

---------------------------------------- Would coal gasification be anything like wood gasification? I've watched a few videos on it (wood) and it seems like an awful lot of work. Bob La Londe

-------------------------- This is part of "Clean Coal" whose goal is to use it without the CO2 emissions, despite the complexity and cost.

The older gasification method is similar to wood distillation, the solid result is coke whose value is less urban smoke pollution for domestic use and less sulfur contamination in steel making. Both produce tar which is a nuisance to clean out.

Coal can also be turned into Water Gas, C + H2O <-> CO + H2. It's the 1800's Town Gas that was so deadly if not burned. In the process he mentioned the reaction is C + 1/2 O2 -> CO, then CO + H2O <-> CO2 + H2, and the CO2 is somehow separated out and hidden, including the oxygen.

The conditions are controlled to minimize the reverse reactions, since if atoms are hot enough they aren't fussy about who they pair up with, and when they cool they usually tend to put up with each other.

In photosynthesis CO2 + H2O -> CH2O + O2. CH2O joined into chains is Carbo-Hydrate, i.e sugar, starch and cellulose. Trees are made of air.

You make a good point - you could also inject water to get hydrogen too. As this is to be used at the power-station, if the gas is 100% carbon-monoxide that isn't an issue.

There is in-situ coal gasification in the geological strata - which is done, fuelling power-plants - with mix of CO and H2.

A lot of the point here is to take open-cast pit quarried coal and have a heaps of it - millions of tonnes per. Even if you have no coal yourself - import it in bulkers across the sea. To give yourself time if things go a bit topsy-turvy.

The Mediterranean Sea is the one (and only?) with the temperature which is far away from the modal temperature. It's enclosed tiny entrance through the Straights of Gibraltar / The Gates of Heracles. The global ocean currents don't feature inside. We know here in Cornwall - the Navy had a couple of supply ships built for them, and that Pacific Ocean nation didn't know that. Oooo-ooops - lot of Royal Navy deployments are to the Mediterranean... Insufficient cooling capacity in the heat-exchangers. The new legendary "HMS Repair" and "HMS Refit" now in the local dockyard.

You make a good point - you could also inject water to get hydrogen too. As this is to be used at the power-station, if the gas is 100% carbon-monoxide that isn't an issue.

There is in-situ coal gasification in the geological strata - which is done, fuelling power-plants - with mix of CO and H2.

A lot of the point here is to take open-cast pit quarried coal and have a heaps of it - millions of tonnes per. Even if you have no coal yourself - import it in bulkers across the sea. To give yourself time if things go a bit topsy-turvy.

-----------------------------------------

There are many old methods we might revert to after running out of the more convenient ones we use now. I've explored some, like firewood heat and hot water and a clothesline. We lived that way when I was little, and my southern mountain grandparents didn't have electricity or running water until Dad had learned enough while updating our 1830 house to install it for them in the 1970's. Trying to split wood at 9000' at an uncle's cabin in Colorado very quickly reminded me I wasn't used to the thin air. I carried hot water out to the well to thaw the frozen pump. There was no reading material in the outhouse because one didn't stay any longer than absolutely necessary. For the women that was the worst part, the men didn't mind as much. In the Army I spent two not unpleasant weeks in December 1972 camping on a snow covered German mountain top. After that I could and did sleep out on the ground.

Firewood heat is said to require 5 acres to harvest it continuously for one house. My improvements have cut my consumption to less than half the norm others with similar houses report around here, 1/3 in mild winters.

Just out of curiosity how many square feet are you heating and about how many cords for an average winter . With what my neighbor has given me (cleanup from storm damage in town) I'll have around 4+ cords of mostly red and white oak with some hickory . I plan on trying to get a couple more and I'm heating about 1500 sf . Everybody here is prepping for a hard winter ... we're all getting our tractors set up for snow removal and making sure things are in good repair . I may actually need those chains I've got for the SUV and my pickup .

The Mediterranean Sea is the one (and only?) with the temperature which is far away from the modal temperature. It's enclosed tiny entrance through the Straights of Gibraltar / The Gates of Heracles. The global ocean currents don't feature inside. We know here in Cornwall - the Navy had a couple of supply ships built for them, and that Pacific Ocean nation didn't know that.

-----------------------------------

That's surprising, naval stories from the Pacific mention 80F ocean temperatures. Shipwreck survivors could survive floating for days. Google AI claims 25-30C.

The first colonists here expected climate similar to European latitudes and were rudely, sometimes lethally surprised by the much wider extremes.

Just out of curiosity how many square feet are you heating and about how many cords for an average winter . With what my neighbor has given me (cleanup from storm damage in town) I'll have around 4+ cords of mostly red and white oak with some hickory . I plan on trying to get a couple more and I'm heating about 1500 sf . Everybody here is prepping for a hard winter ... we're all getting our tractors set up for snow removal and making sure things are in good repair . I may actually need those chains I've got for the SUV and my pickup . Snag

--------------------------------------------- My house is a common local design, 24' x 42' (1008 sq') with original electric heat and good-for-1970 insulation, we were promised cheap nuclear power, ha ha. Others tell me they burn 5 cords a year, I generally use somewhat less than 2 to keep it near 60F and wear lined shirts and pants. Their cords may be whatever they were told, mine are measured.

A cord is 4' x 4' x 8', 128 cubic feet when split or around 100 easier to measure and figure square feet if cut 15"-16" long. I store it on standard

An 8x10 shed 3 pallets wide and 2 deep, 120" x 96", makes efficient use of

The main house improvements are doubling the attic insulation crosswise and making press-in window inserts to give 4 layers. I rebuilt the deteriorating window exteriors and replaced the doors and sealed them more carefully. I closed air leaks upstairs until the humidity started to rise, an indication of the air exchange rate. The ground-level basement still leaks because the stove there needs unrestricted air for good chimney draft to make the Jotul

The road crews here are skilled and well equipped and heavy snow isn't a problem beyond the effort to clear driveways, usually the roads are clear and dry by noon the day after a storm. Our heating systems are good to perhaps -20F, maybe lower overnight. The danger is ice storms that drop trees onto houses, roads and power lines. Only ice storms close the roads, then we'd play on them on our dirt bikes. I prepared for a week without power and then found I had to up it to two weeks, so Covid wasn't an issue. The limits appears to be sufficient refrigeration and warm showers, both actually easier in winter than summer.

It's enclosed tiny entrance through the Straights of Gibraltar / The Gates of Heracles.

-------------------------------------- I looked into that after reading Plato's account of Atlantis. It's possible that they were actual stone columns like he supposedly toppled in a Phoenician temple at Gades (Cadiz) and Plato or Solon could have referred to another nearer temple with such pillars, as in Tyre, or even the headlands of the Gulf of Corinth, since the Greeks were fond of simile and metaphor. Other aspects of the story strongly suggest that Atlantis was near Athens and was Thera, such as the concentric land and water rings from volcanic ash and lava flows and the 80 man Athenian garrison lost with the city. Afterwards the sea around was clogged with floating pumice, another clue that it was a volcanic island where the Greeks sailed. He gives the size of Atlantis in three steps which could be the size of the island, its zone of control and the extent of its trade. Thera still has the black, white and red rocks he mentioned and fits if he or Solon mistook 1,000 for 10,000 in Egyptian.

I like it a little warmer , generally shoot for mid/lower 70's . My cords like yours are measured .

I cut mine at 20" , got a mark on all the chainsaws for uniformity .

I'm using a base of used steel roofing , pad is 12 feet by about 30 . I cover my piles with a tarp , sides left open and I leave a space between rows for air circulation .

Our house in new construction with R11 in the walls and R17 in the ceilings . Our windows are all double glazed plastic framed , This summer I've added house wrap and 1x10 rough cut pine siding .

We have good road crews , but they're not equipped for a lot of snow , plus being stretched over a lot of miles of roads . We're a mile off the paved road and the county might not make it out here for up to a week . That's why we've all been preparing for snow removal . And since winter storms here often begin with rain/freezing rain/sleet there's usually a bottom layer of ice . And it's all uphill from down here to the highway . And the highway will be just as slick , which is why I have chains for all 4 wheels of both vehicles . We've seen ice so slippery you literally couldn't stand up on it . I won't go out on that unless I have to , but if I have to I can ...

I stand corrected.

I like it a little warmer , generally shoot for mid/lower 70's . My cords like yours are measured .

-------------------------------

OTOH I don't turn on the A/C until the temp passes 80.

Some part/full Native American friends were much more tolerant of cold, as in working under a truck in a tee shirt at freezing. The full blooded mother showed me that a pinch of her forearm skin was several times thicker than mine.

I stand corrected.

---------------------------------------

Maybe not. Asians can be very unaware of the West, as we can them. Perhaps the specifications omitted things assumed obvious.

I worked with Asian engineers in the 80's and we had to be cautious of the cultural differences, for example whether the talker or listener is responsible for understanding. They wouldn't ask for clarification, just nod "hai" and then do it their way.

I showed a Mitsubishi engineer that English really does have a word for ten thousand in his dictionary, though few know it. Having one had been a Japanese claim of superiority at the time, which I didn't hear again.

Ocean conditions are very specialized knowledge, I was surprised to learn the Germans made mistakes with them.

Ships that had to be upgraded with an Atlantic bow included the battlecruisers Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, and the pocket battleships Deutschland/Lützow and Admiral Scheer."

I'm using a base of used steel roofing , pad is 12 feet by about 30 . I cover my piles with a tarp , sides left open and I leave a space between rows for air circulation .

------------------------

I tried tarps and several other unsuccessful ways to keep the wood dry and support a heavy snow load before reluctantly investing in the corrugated steel roofing panels on heavy table-like frames made partly of logs. My property is mostly forest that drops rotted branches which dent but rarely puncture the galvy roofing. I restore it with a plastic hammer over a water pipe anvil on sawhorses. At first I screwed the panels down as recommended but that hindered re-use elsewhere after straightening, so now I screw one down-turned edge to the beams to prevent shifting and bolt the corners together, a screwed-down edge to an overlapping free one. Various scrap tied over the top prevents the wind from lifting them and the edge and corner holes don't leak onto shed contents when moved elsewhere. Many tiedowns are the warped and twisted PT cull from HD and Lowe's.

If we get over 3" of snow here the whole f***in' county shuts down . Seriously , these people just ain't equipped to deal with snow . Where I grew up (Box Elder County Utah) 2-3 feet on the ground on the valley floor wasn't unusual . Last winter we got 7-8" from one storm that shut everything down for a week . My biggest problem was that I hadn't dismounted the mower deck from Rusty and it was dragging in the snow beyond the ends of the front blade . The 4WD Yanmar ain't gonna have that problem ... I just realized I think I have a set of chains that will fit the front wheels of the Yanmar! Great news in case we get ice . "Whither thy front wheels go , the rest will follow as surely as day follows night" .

Utah is something. I rolled in to Salt Lake to join up with an outfit I worked for in Early September once. I got a hotel room for the night, and when I looked out the window in the morning there was snow or ice (not sure which, but it looked like snow) on all the roof tops. For Utah, Salt Lake isn't even cold country.

In the low lands I'm used to we don't usually even see any jacket weather until around Halloween.